Yep, you HAVE to use this!
With PS3 information, aside from the E3 bombast, still very thin on the ground, the facts and figures published in Future's US PSM magazine make interesting reading.
Although the NDA fearing sources have wisely chosen to stay anonymous, what they have to say doesn't sound unlikely, though we have to say, little of it is good news. As is traditional, here's the bad news first:
- The PS3 will not be compatible with any previous PlayStation controllers. We're guessing this is because the PS3 will only use wireless controllers, there are certainly no visible ports on the outside of the machine. Obviously this will extend to dance mats and other peripherals too.
- The PS3 will not be compatible with any previous PlayStation Memory Cards. Yep, just as last generation, though the machine is backwards compatible you won't be able to transfer your save games.
- The hard drive is not for saving game data. Apparently it's just for saving media on – MP3s, images and the like. Game data will be stored on Memory Stick Duo, the same format used by the PSP.
So, the good news? Well there is some. Indeed, the flip side of the Memory Stick Duo being used is that, presumably, there can be some connectivity between saves from your PSP and PS3. Speaking of which, you'll be able to use the PlayStation Portable as a sort of Wi-Fi remote controller. There's good news for lowly types who don't own a HD-TV, too: if you run it on a normal TV set, the spare processing power will be used to make the game faster. So, after all the debates about how foolish Nintendo were to be the only next-gen manufacturer to ignore HD-TV, it seems all but the most craven graphics whores will be playing without it anyway.
Now, don't get carried away just yet. Even if this is true, there's every chance it could change between now and the Japanese launch in spring next year. In the meantime, rest assured that we'll publish more argument fuelling names and numbers as soon as we get them.
Although the NDA fearing sources have wisely chosen to stay anonymous, what they have to say doesn't sound unlikely, though we have to say, little of it is good news. As is traditional, here's the bad news first:
- The PS3 will not be compatible with any previous PlayStation controllers. We're guessing this is because the PS3 will only use wireless controllers, there are certainly no visible ports on the outside of the machine. Obviously this will extend to dance mats and other peripherals too.
- The PS3 will not be compatible with any previous PlayStation Memory Cards. Yep, just as last generation, though the machine is backwards compatible you won't be able to transfer your save games.
- The hard drive is not for saving game data. Apparently it's just for saving media on – MP3s, images and the like. Game data will be stored on Memory Stick Duo, the same format used by the PSP.
So, the good news? Well there is some. Indeed, the flip side of the Memory Stick Duo being used is that, presumably, there can be some connectivity between saves from your PSP and PS3. Speaking of which, you'll be able to use the PlayStation Portable as a sort of Wi-Fi remote controller. There's good news for lowly types who don't own a HD-TV, too: if you run it on a normal TV set, the spare processing power will be used to make the game faster. So, after all the debates about how foolish Nintendo were to be the only next-gen manufacturer to ignore HD-TV, it seems all but the most craven graphics whores will be playing without it anyway.
Now, don't get carried away just yet. Even if this is true, there's every chance it could change between now and the Japanese launch in spring next year. In the meantime, rest assured that we'll publish more argument fuelling names and numbers as soon as we get them.
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Comments
DaPistolPat 2 Aug 2005 20:25
1/15
In all reality you are looking at about $499 or less for the initial console hopefully its not more then $499, Then you have about $29 for the pro duo card, then about $99 to $120 for the hard drive and the finally the games were already said to be more this generation by all developers so i would guess around $59 for one game.
It looks like its gonna be a fun and costly next generation for any console gamer. My guess would be that the only place you will see cheaper new games would be a PC or maybe nintendo with the their simple yet fun philosophy about games.
Personally i am hoping for maybe more awsome games then crappy games cause in the past there has been a hell of alot of crappy games.
It looks like its gonna be a fun and costly next generation for any console gamer. My guess would be that the only place you will see cheaper new games would be a PC or maybe nintendo with the their simple yet fun philosophy about games.
Personally i am hoping for maybe more awsome games then crappy games cause in the past there has been a hell of alot of crappy games.
claudioalex 3 Aug 2005 07:24
2/15
WTF?
I dont get it.
Why a game made for HD definition would look better in a lower definition¿¿????
IT looks like the PS3 Hardware cannot suport HD graphics without slowering the frame rate, so , where is the improvemnt here and the cell processor, and the blue ray, and the blue tooth, and the 6 USB ports?
Cause I remember , they are advertising that theyr strenght are the hardware power and the graphics, and if they cannot manage graphics in HD, then , where is theyr true strenght?, cause innovation, there isnt.
I dont get it.
Why a game made for HD definition would look better in a lower definition¿¿????
IT looks like the PS3 Hardware cannot suport HD graphics without slowering the frame rate, so , where is the improvemnt here and the cell processor, and the blue ray, and the blue tooth, and the 6 USB ports?
Cause I remember , they are advertising that theyr strenght are the hardware power and the graphics, and if they cannot manage graphics in HD, then , where is theyr true strenght?, cause innovation, there isnt.
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tyrion 3 Aug 2005 08:13
3/15
claudioalex wrote:
WTF?
I dont get it.
Why a game made for HD definition would look better in a lower definition¿¿????
I dont get it.
Why a game made for HD definition would look better in a lower definition¿¿????
Simple really. If you aren't considering as may pixels, then you can apply more effects to each one in the same amount of time. Put simply, more shaders per refresh equals better looking games.
claudioalex wrote:
IT looks like the PS3 Hardware cannot suport HD graphics without slowering the frame rate, so , where is the improvemnt here and the cell processor, and the blue ray, and the blue tooth, and the 6 USB ports?
There is always a limit on what hardware can do in the time between each frame of animation. In next-gen hardware, there will be a high upper limit. However if you drop the resolution, you can have a much higher upper limit.
You may be able to have more polygons considered per frame, so you don't get pop up. You may be able to use your close up textures at greater distances so distant objects don't res up when they get close. You may be able to apply more shaders so that you get better smoke, lighting or hair textures.
Sure you are displaying this loveliness on fewer pixels, but today's resolutions can display adequate detail if given enough time to render them. Next-gen hardware will render the extra detail much faster.
claudioalex wrote:
Cause I remember , they are advertising that theyr strenght are the hardware power and the graphics, and if they cannot manage graphics in HD, then , where is theyr true strenght?, cause innovation, there isnt.
I don't think they will be unable to display in HD resolutions, and I still believe that the games in HD will look better than today's hardware can produce. It's just if you drop the res, you will get truly stunning games in non-HD resolutions.
And why do you think there is no innovation? We have a completely new CPU architecture in both XB360 and PS3, we have huge leaps in graphical prowess on both, we have wireless controllers as standard on both, we have a new distribution medium on the PS3.
Just because Sony and Microsoft haven't called their consoles "Revolution" doesn't mean there is no innovation.
kid_77 3 Aug 2005 09:24
4/15
I seem to remember questioning $ony and M$'s decision to go HD, when it was announced a few months back. Sure new technology needs to be pushed before it becomes mainstream. But what percentage of PS3/XB360 users will adopt HD technology in the next 5-7 years? Unless it becomes "affordable", and quickly, I know I won't.
If the news piece is true, then I'm pleased the LD plebs will be catered for.
And a techie question for LUPOS, Config et al (as I'm not up on modern rendering methods): Will the developers need to specify where they apply the extra performance, leveraged by going LD, or will the GPU (or even supplied dev tools) apply the change 'automatically'? Is there flexibility for where the improvement increases, (e.g. upping fps/lengthening draw distance/increasing shaders etc.]?
EDIT: I guess my main concern is; if it isn't 'automatic' will some devlopers be lazy, and just let the fps go up, by default.
If the news piece is true, then I'm pleased the LD plebs will be catered for.
And a techie question for LUPOS, Config et al (as I'm not up on modern rendering methods): Will the developers need to specify where they apply the extra performance, leveraged by going LD, or will the GPU (or even supplied dev tools) apply the change 'automatically'? Is there flexibility for where the improvement increases, (e.g. upping fps/lengthening draw distance/increasing shaders etc.]?
EDIT: I guess my main concern is; if it isn't 'automatic' will some devlopers be lazy, and just let the fps go up, by default.
king skins 3 Aug 2005 09:35
5/15
claudioalex wrote:
Cause I remember , they are advertising that theyr strenght are the hardware power and the graphics, and if they cannot manage graphics in HD, then , where is theyr true strenght?, cause innovation, there isnt.
I think they mean that if you set up your PS3 on a normal TV then you will be alble to configure the PS3 and it will output in a lower resolution. It would then be outputting in a lower resolution which would mean that there was some processing power that is now left over which could be used to produce better graphics effects as tyrion explained.
But I would think this was something individual companies would have to implement in there games engines rather than a hardware solution. So how many games will actual take advantage of this...
tyrion 3 Aug 2005 12:43
6/15
kid_77 wrote:
And a techie question for LUPOS, Config et al (as I'm not up on modern rendering methods): Will the developers need to specify where they apply the extra performance, leveraged by going LD, or will the GPU (or even supplied dev tools) apply the change 'automatically'? Is there flexibility for where the improvement increases, (e.g. upping fps/lengthening draw distance/increasing shaders etc.]?
I think the game engine would have to be written to take account of the resolution. There are too many factors that the GPU can't be aware of. For example draw distance, you don't want to give your entire world's polygons to the GPU and let it work things out. The same goes for level of detail calculations and curve tessellation routines.
kid_77 wrote:
I guess my main concern is; if it isn't 'automatic' will some devlopers be lazy, and just let the fps go up, by default.
The FPS can't go above the frame rate of the display device. There is no point in getting 70 FPS on a 50 Hz PAL display, for example.
kid_77 3 Aug 2005 13:36
7/15
tyrion wrote:
The FPS can't go above the frame rate of the display device. There is no point in getting 70 FPS on a 50 Hz PAL display, for example.
Which is kind of my point/concern.
Surely whether developers decide to increase performance for LD users, will depend on how much extra effort they'll need to put in. If it's, say 100 extra man-hours, it'll be worth their while. If it's a 1,000, then it might significantly hold back the release.
miacid 3 Aug 2005 13:51
8/15
Please correct if I'm wrong but the way I see it being will be similar to what we have at the moment with 50/60 Hz.
I'm guessing they'll be an option for HD/LD, then if LD is selected there will be a general increase as the system won't have to render so much each clock cycle. Therefore leaving more system resources available.
Then developers will just use their higher res textures, etc... for HD and the less detailed ones for LD.
Or at least that's how I see it 8~)
I'm guessing they'll be an option for HD/LD, then if LD is selected there will be a general increase as the system won't have to render so much each clock cycle. Therefore leaving more system resources available.
Then developers will just use their higher res textures, etc... for HD and the less detailed ones for LD.
Or at least that's how I see it 8~)
config 3 Aug 2005 13:52
9/15
I'd say, relax; developers are more likely to devote their time/effort on creating the best experience for the lowest common denominator (LDTV) than to the still exotic and relatively small market that is HDTV.
claudioalex 3 Aug 2005 14:23
10/15
This is still confusing
Tyron wrote:
"I don't think they will be unable to display in HD resolutions, and I still believe that the games in HD will look better than today's hardware can produce. It's just if you drop the res, you will get truly stunning games in non-HD resolutions.
And why do you think there is no innovation? We have a completely new CPU architecture in both XB360 and PS3, we have huge leaps in graphical prowess on both, we have wireless controllers as standard on both, we have a new distribution medium on the PS3.
Just because Sony and Microsoft haven't called their consoles "Revolution" doesn't mean there is no innovation."
Then you are telling me that HD games looks better in non-HD resolution, thats what you just told me.
Interestengly Sony claims the contrary.
And hey, i think we all want a true innovation in next generation console,(we deserv it, 10 years have passed playng the same way) , everything you told me doesnt change the game experience at all, comparing with the current console generation.
The wow factor for games with improved graphics last only 15 minutes. Now we want more than better graphics.
I would like every next console to have a unique new game experience or innovation, then i would buy the 3 of them.
Tyron wrote:
"I don't think they will be unable to display in HD resolutions, and I still believe that the games in HD will look better than today's hardware can produce. It's just if you drop the res, you will get truly stunning games in non-HD resolutions.
And why do you think there is no innovation? We have a completely new CPU architecture in both XB360 and PS3, we have huge leaps in graphical prowess on both, we have wireless controllers as standard on both, we have a new distribution medium on the PS3.
Just because Sony and Microsoft haven't called their consoles "Revolution" doesn't mean there is no innovation."
Then you are telling me that HD games looks better in non-HD resolution, thats what you just told me.
Interestengly Sony claims the contrary.
And hey, i think we all want a true innovation in next generation console,(we deserv it, 10 years have passed playng the same way) , everything you told me doesnt change the game experience at all, comparing with the current console generation.
The wow factor for games with improved graphics last only 15 minutes. Now we want more than better graphics.
I would like every next console to have a unique new game experience or innovation, then i would buy the 3 of them.
config 3 Aug 2005 14:50
11/15
claudioalex wrote:
This is still confusing
Tyron wrote:
"I don't think they will be unable to display in HD resolutions, and I still believe that the games in HD will look better than today's hardware can produce. It's just if you drop the res, you will get truly stunning games in non-HD resolutions."
Then you are telling me that HD games looks better in non-HD resolution, thats what you just told me.
Interestengly Sony claims the contrary.
Tyron wrote:
"I don't think they will be unable to display in HD resolutions, and I still believe that the games in HD will look better than today's hardware can produce. It's just if you drop the res, you will get truly stunning games in non-HD resolutions."
Then you are telling me that HD games looks better in non-HD resolution, thats what you just told me.
Interestengly Sony claims the contrary.
No, he's saying that "if you drop the res, you will get truly stunning games in non-HD resolutions".
An "HD game" is any game that displays at true HD resolutions (720i/p, 1080i/p). That same game could display at lower, non-HD resolutions. Drop the res, and the game is no longer HD, but you get the extra processing power to do other nice stuff.
Example; At 1080p your GPU might not have the grunt to do any anti-aliasing and maintain a reasonable framerate, leaving the polys all jaggy. 720i might be able to "afford" 4x AA, but things still look a bit rough. However, at 480i there's plenty of room for 16x anti-aliasing, resulting in smoother finish (and maybe some power left over for more extra shaders effects).
That's not a real world exmaple, just a demonstration of the balancing act.
tyrion 3 Aug 2005 17:49
12/15
claudioalex wrote:
Then you are telling me that HD games looks better in non-HD resolution, thats what you just told me.
Interestengly Sony claims the contrary.
Interestengly Sony claims the contrary.
I think config covered this, his answer is exactly what I was getting at.
claudioalex wrote:
And hey, i think we all want a true innovation in next generation console,(we deserv it, 10 years have passed playng the same way) , everything you told me doesnt change the game experience at all, comparing with the current console generation.
I believe there will be innovations in gaming in the near future, I also recognise that there have been three biggies in the last two generations of PlayStation, admittedly I don't find them at all appealing, but they have sold bucket loads of games and pulled in many non-gamers.
1) Dance Mats
OK, they came from Japanese dancing games in the arcades, but getting that machine into a peripheral for your console was a good innovation.
2) EyeToy
Big, big, big innovation here, no controller required, you appear in the game, etc.
3) Microphones
Sing Star (and the DS) have shown that sound can be another way of interacting with your game.
Now the last two were pioneered by Sony, at least in TV consoles. Don't see why they can't push another few innovations through.
claudioalex wrote:
The wow factor for games with improved graphics last only 15 minutes. Now we want more than better graphics.
True. I have been very disappointed by the decline of the game play element in games recently. There are very few games that I enjoy as much as I seem to remember enjoying my C64 and Amiga games.
claudioalex wrote:
I would like every next console to have a unique new game experience or innovation, then i would buy the 3 of them.
I agree entirely, with one proviso, I'd have to enjoy the innovations. See above, dancing, waving my hands and singing are not at all appealing to me as game play techniques.
I think Sony may have another peripheral up their sleeves this generation, they can't bank on improved graphics, another EyeToy and bigger disks forever. There has to be a reason there are so many USB ports on the PS3.
Microsoft, not too sure, true to form as a software company, the are putting their time into improving the software side of XBox. I think Live-NG, or whatever they call it, is going to rock for on-line games, I'm a little bit put off at the marketplace mumblings though.
Nintendo, ah Nintendo! Does anybody know what they are going to come up with this gen? Revolution - "It's in the controller", "It's under that flap there", "It'll be easy for people to copy" What the hell is it? More importantly, will I like it?
TwoADay 3 Aug 2005 20:39
13/15
I don't think the Dance Mat was that large of an innovation, if any. Remember the old Nintendo mat? It's the same thing, in my opinion, just a few extra spots for more "buttons." If future "innovations" are based on old ideas, we should watch out for Robots that play games again. :)
As for what Nintendo has got in store, I'm prepared to be disappointed. I doubt it will be nearly as revolutionary as it's being built up to be, and when announced, we'll say "That's really wierd. I wonder if it will work?" and for a few (nintendo-made) games, it will, but it won't be mainstreamed for some reason.
Of course, I'll likely still get one. The chance to have the back catalogue is tempting enough that it will likely be my second next-gen system, once some more details on the pricing and such are released.
As for what Nintendo has got in store, I'm prepared to be disappointed. I doubt it will be nearly as revolutionary as it's being built up to be, and when announced, we'll say "That's really wierd. I wonder if it will work?" and for a few (nintendo-made) games, it will, but it won't be mainstreamed for some reason.
Of course, I'll likely still get one. The chance to have the back catalogue is tempting enough that it will likely be my second next-gen system, once some more details on the pricing and such are released.
jsm30625 3 Aug 2005 21:46
14/15
tyrion wrote:
claudioalex wrote:
Then you are telling me that HD games looks better in non-HD resolution, thats what you just told me.
Interestengly Sony claims the contrary.
Interestengly Sony claims the contrary.
I think config covered this, his answer is exactly what I was getting at.
claudioalex wrote:
And hey, i think we all want a true innovation in next generation console,(we deserv it, 10 years have passed playng the same way) , everything you told me doesnt change the game experience at all, comparing with the current console generation.
I believe there will be innovations in gaming in the near future, I also recognise that there have been three biggies in the last two generations of PlayStation, admittedly I don't find them at all appealing, but they have sold bucket loads of games and pulled in many non-gamers.
1) Dance Mats
OK, they came from Japanese dancing games in the arcades, but getting that machine into a peripheral for your console was a good innovation.
Innovation, no, it was just bringing an arcade experience to your home. Don't get me wrong, I still like it.
2) EyeToy
Big, big, big innovation here, no controller required, you appear in the game, etc.
Big, big, big innovation here, no controller required, you appear in the game, etc.
Yeah, but the games get old after a while. It is a "big innovation" but it doesn't seem to be living up to its full potential. (Rumor has it, Nintendo has a device similar to the EyeToy http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=344)
3) Microphones
Sing Star (and the DS) have shown that sound can be another way of interacting with your game.
Sing Star (and the DS) have shown that sound can be another way of interacting with your game.
That is an innovation, but it is being used in addition to traditional game controls. I love microphones, but there is only so much that you can do with your voice.
Now the last two were pioneered by Sony, at least in TV consoles. Don't see why they can't push another few innovations through.
Eyetoy, yes. Microphone, no. Mario Party 6 uses a microphone. In DK: Jungle Beat you yell, clap, make a loud noise to control Donkey Kong. I would rather be playing that than Singstar.
claudioalex wrote:
The wow factor for games with improved graphics last only 15 minutes. Now we want more than better graphics.
True. I have been very disappointed by the decline of the game play element in games recently. There are very few games that I enjoy as much as I seem to remember enjoying my C64 and Amiga games.
claudioalex wrote:
I would like every next console to have a unique new game experience or innovation, then i would buy the 3 of them.
I agree entirely, with one proviso, I'd have to enjoy the innovations. See above, dancing, waving my hands and singing are not at all appealing to me as game play techniques.
I think Sony may have another peripheral up their sleeves this generation, they can't bank on improved graphics, another EyeToy and bigger disks forever. There has to be a reason there are so many USB ports on the PS3.
Maybe the PS3 is going to have a wired version of the Nintendo Revolution controller interface!
Microsoft, not too sure, true to form as a software company, the are putting their time into improving the software side of XBox. I think Live-NG, or whatever they call it, is going to rock for on-line games, I'm a little bit put off at the marketplace mumblings though.
What marketplace mumblings?
Nintendo, ah Nintendo! Does anybody know what they are going to come up with this gen? Revolution - "It's in the controller", "It's under that flap there",
Who said it is under the flap, don't start ridiculing Nintendo for their yet-to-be-announced controller.
"It'll be easy for people to copy" What the hell is it?
We don't know yet. Patience is a virtue.
More importantly, will I like it?
Just wait.
tyrion 4 Aug 2005 08:09
15/15
jsm30625 wrote:
tyrion wrote:
1) Dance Mats
OK, they came from Japanese dancing games in the arcades, but getting that machine into a peripheral for your console was a good innovation.
OK, they came from Japanese dancing games in the arcades, but getting that machine into a peripheral for your console was a good innovation.
Innovation, no, it was just bringing an arcade experience to your home. Don't get me wrong, I still like it.
I think it was an innovation in actually brining that different experience into your home. Because of the floor space needed for the dance mat, it actually made more sense to have the game played in the living room, rather than the bedroom. This brought non-gamers into the mix as Mam and Dad decided to join in.
jsm30625 wrote:
Tyrion wrote:
2) EyeToy
Big, big, big innovation here, no controller required, you appear in the game, etc.
Big, big, big innovation here, no controller required, you appear in the game, etc.
Yeah, but the games get old after a while. It is a "big innovation" but it doesn't seem to be living up to its full potential. (Rumor has it, Nintendo has a device similar to the EyeToy http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=344)
And I've seen a camera for XBox 360. When Sony copies Nintendo and puts a analogue sticks on controllers, people are all over it, but when MS and Ninty copy the EyeToy, nothing?
jsm30625 wrote:
Tyrion wrote:
Now the last two were pioneered by Sony, at least in TV consoles. Don't see why they can't push another few innovations through.
Eyetoy, yes. Microphone, no. Mario Party 6 uses a microphone. In DK: Jungle Beat you yell, clap, make a loud noise to control Donkey Kong. I would rather be playing that than Singstar.
Sing Star's UK release date was miles ahead of MP6 and even pre-dated the UK release of Jungle Beat.
Mario Party 6 - 18th Mar 2005
Donkey Konga: Jungle Beat - 4th Feb 2005
Sing Star - 21st May 2004
Now I know the UK took ages to get DK:JB, but SS was still pretty early on. Not sure on the Jap release dates of any of them. However, SS did popularise the use of microphones.
jsm30625 wrote:
Tyrion wrote:
I think Sony may have another peripheral up their sleeves this generation, they can't bank on improved graphics, another EyeToy and bigger disks forever. There has to be a reason there are so many USB ports on the PS3.
Maybe the PS3 is going to have a wired version of the Nintendo Revolution controller interface!
I think Ninty will be keeping that well under wraps until Sony has at least declared the final, non-prototype, version of their controller for the PS3.
jsm30625 wrote:
Tyrion wrote:
Microsoft, not too sure, true to form as a software company, the are putting their time into improving the software side of XBox. I think Live-NG, or whatever they call it, is going to rock for on-line games, I'm a little bit put off at the marketplace mumblings though.
What marketplace mumblings?
The whole "buy upgrades for your in-game car" type of thing, plus the "buy music over Live" things they have been going on about.
Use your money in the real world instead of your skills in the game world. Buy things other people have unlocked by being good.
Just sounds, you know, off.
jsm30625 wrote:
Tyrion wrote:
Nintendo, ah Nintendo! Does anybody know what they are going to come up with this gen? Revolution - "It's in the controller", "It's under that flap there",
Who said it is under the flap, don't start ridiculing Nintendo for their yet-to-be-announced controller.
T'was said to SPOnG staff at E3 when they got to handle the prototype.
Read it here
SPOnG wrote:
Another flap shows twin solid state storage drives, another flap, the important and ominous-looking one on the front, would not open."There's a clue there," we were told by senior Nintendo staff today as we pawed the hardware, which we could power on and off and fully examine. "That's the Revolution, right there." The collective SPOnG mind boggled.
jsm30625 wrote:
More importantly, will I like it?
Just wait.
Hey, I live in the UK, I'm used to waiting for gaming hardware.
FFS, I'm having to wait until 1st Sep for a PSP. I know I could import, but there's the comfort factor of knowing you can take it back to the shop if there are screen faults or whatever. The SPOnG PSP, which we imported from Japan over the new year, has two stuck pixels, but other than that is perfect. I just want mine to be totally perfect as an example of a PSP.
Anyway, digression. Nintendo are making me wait for information and I don't like that. There is a lot of hand waving surrounding Revolution, much in the way of "It'll be great, trust us, just wait".
The global gaming community wouldn't put up with it from Sony or Microsoft, why should we put up with it from Nintendo?