PS3: Goodbye DualShock, Hello Gyroscopic Sensors
Nintendo rip-off? And/or yielding to legal threat?
It became clear at E3 last week, whilst talking to numerous senior development personnel at the show, that Sony had finished adding on the motion sensing capabilities of the PS3 controller right at the last minute.
With only one game at the show making use of the motion sensor aspect of the controller - the internally developed Warhawk (click here for SPOnG's hands on) - there were soon whisperings across the show floor that Sony had nicked Nintendo's big motion-sensing control idea.
And perhaps they have, in part? Though we have to be clear on the fact that the two controllers are still completely different. Simply put, the Wii's two-part controller makes use of full 3D motion sensing, whereas the PS3 gyroscope and accelerometer powered controller is based around the controller's tilt and motion. There is no external sensor to measure exactly where the controller is in 3D space, so there is no way in which Sony is planning to 'rip-off' Wii games, as some misinformed Nintendo fanboys were claiming last week. At best, the PS3 controller could try to plot relative movements and use them to guess at an absolute position. That's the equivalent of navigating a boat by going 100 miles north then 50 miles west instead of using GPS - it'll get you somewhere close, but errors will add up. Not so much of a problem in a boat where you can see land, but a bit imprecise in a games console.
Sony did attempt to spin the fact that not needing an external sensor bar was in some way an advantage, but for most it is hard to see what they were getting at, other than having a cheap dig at Nintendo.
There is also the fact that, as backed up by a 1999 patent, Sony have been working on motion sensing technology for a while now. However, there was no evidence what so ever that the technology was slated for PS3 until this year's E3. Well after Nintendo showed the Wii (then still Revolution) controller at the Tokyo Games Show.
One announcement that Sony managed to slip out last week that didn't seem to garner the attention it perhaps should have done, is that the company have also decided to drop "DualShock" vibration control - which is surprising, as this seems to be a popular feature with PS2 gamers.
The reasoning given by Sony was that the DualShock's rumble feature interfered with the gyroscopic motion sensor in the PS3 controller. Sony also went on to refer to the PS2's rumble features as 'last generation' in order to further the idea that the PS3's motion-sensing controller is decidedly the next gen way forward.
It was at this point that SPOnG immediately smelt a rat. Why would a company throw out a feature that many of its current consumers and fans actively like? Why all these last minute shenanigans with the gyroscopic motion-sensor control? If this is really the way forward for controlling next gen PS3 titles, why were Sony's own in-house developers only given ten days to come up with the goods on Warhark?
SPOnG suspects there is much more at play here than Sony is letting on. As has just been reported by intrepid investigative reporter, Mike Antonucci over on the San Jose Mercury News there is of course 'the Immersion effect' to take into consideration.
If you are not aware of this then here is the background, as Antonucci so succinctly puts it: "Immersion is the company that won a verdict against Sony for patent infringement involving the vibration feedback system in the PlayStation brand. (The case isn't over; the verdict is being appealed). And after Sony said it needed to take force-feedback out of its PS3 controller in order to include new motion-sensitive technology, Sony exec Phil Harrison said the decision was NOT influenced by the legal case."
Antonunni has subsequently interviewed Immersion CEO and president Vic Viegas, who told him, "If Sony wants to discuss the problem, he's sure his company could eliminate any technical conflict between having both the motion sensitivity and the vibration effect in a PS3 controller and that Immersion also is ready to provide a "next-generation" level of force feedback for the console."
SPOnG is going to keep our beady eye on this one. Let us know your thoughts, as ever, below.
With only one game at the show making use of the motion sensor aspect of the controller - the internally developed Warhawk (click here for SPOnG's hands on) - there were soon whisperings across the show floor that Sony had nicked Nintendo's big motion-sensing control idea.
And perhaps they have, in part? Though we have to be clear on the fact that the two controllers are still completely different. Simply put, the Wii's two-part controller makes use of full 3D motion sensing, whereas the PS3 gyroscope and accelerometer powered controller is based around the controller's tilt and motion. There is no external sensor to measure exactly where the controller is in 3D space, so there is no way in which Sony is planning to 'rip-off' Wii games, as some misinformed Nintendo fanboys were claiming last week. At best, the PS3 controller could try to plot relative movements and use them to guess at an absolute position. That's the equivalent of navigating a boat by going 100 miles north then 50 miles west instead of using GPS - it'll get you somewhere close, but errors will add up. Not so much of a problem in a boat where you can see land, but a bit imprecise in a games console.
Sony did attempt to spin the fact that not needing an external sensor bar was in some way an advantage, but for most it is hard to see what they were getting at, other than having a cheap dig at Nintendo.
There is also the fact that, as backed up by a 1999 patent, Sony have been working on motion sensing technology for a while now. However, there was no evidence what so ever that the technology was slated for PS3 until this year's E3. Well after Nintendo showed the Wii (then still Revolution) controller at the Tokyo Games Show.
One announcement that Sony managed to slip out last week that didn't seem to garner the attention it perhaps should have done, is that the company have also decided to drop "DualShock" vibration control - which is surprising, as this seems to be a popular feature with PS2 gamers.
The reasoning given by Sony was that the DualShock's rumble feature interfered with the gyroscopic motion sensor in the PS3 controller. Sony also went on to refer to the PS2's rumble features as 'last generation' in order to further the idea that the PS3's motion-sensing controller is decidedly the next gen way forward.
It was at this point that SPOnG immediately smelt a rat. Why would a company throw out a feature that many of its current consumers and fans actively like? Why all these last minute shenanigans with the gyroscopic motion-sensor control? If this is really the way forward for controlling next gen PS3 titles, why were Sony's own in-house developers only given ten days to come up with the goods on Warhark?
SPOnG suspects there is much more at play here than Sony is letting on. As has just been reported by intrepid investigative reporter, Mike Antonucci over on the San Jose Mercury News there is of course 'the Immersion effect' to take into consideration.
If you are not aware of this then here is the background, as Antonucci so succinctly puts it: "Immersion is the company that won a verdict against Sony for patent infringement involving the vibration feedback system in the PlayStation brand. (The case isn't over; the verdict is being appealed). And after Sony said it needed to take force-feedback out of its PS3 controller in order to include new motion-sensitive technology, Sony exec Phil Harrison said the decision was NOT influenced by the legal case."
Antonunni has subsequently interviewed Immersion CEO and president Vic Viegas, who told him, "If Sony wants to discuss the problem, he's sure his company could eliminate any technical conflict between having both the motion sensitivity and the vibration effect in a PS3 controller and that Immersion also is ready to provide a "next-generation" level of force feedback for the console."
SPOnG is going to keep our beady eye on this one. Let us know your thoughts, as ever, below.
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Comments
Bentley 16 May 2006 16:52
1/14
This is the one thing that has put me off PS3 so far. The price is a lot, but you pay for it once and then you have it for as long as it lasts. But to strip the rumble and take the whole immersive effect out of the next-gen of games is a shocking move that has upset a lot of gamers.
I am hoping it's all a ruse. Well played for picking up on the whole thing about it being different from the Wii controller though. Loads of people went nuts over the idea they'd stolen the concept from Nintendo, but it was obvious with a little research that they are different approaches to simliar concepts.
Personally, I think the motion sensing thing would be a great addition, but to replace vibration is just ridiculous. It was Sony that sold me the whole idea of "feeling" games in the first place! To backpedal now is bordering on criminal. I can control my games more than well enough with the current controllers, I don't fancy losing rumble for some gimmick that was boring 5 minutes after playing Motocross Madness on a PC with a Sidewinder pad yonks ago.
I am hoping it's all a ruse. Well played for picking up on the whole thing about it being different from the Wii controller though. Loads of people went nuts over the idea they'd stolen the concept from Nintendo, but it was obvious with a little research that they are different approaches to simliar concepts.
Personally, I think the motion sensing thing would be a great addition, but to replace vibration is just ridiculous. It was Sony that sold me the whole idea of "feeling" games in the first place! To backpedal now is bordering on criminal. I can control my games more than well enough with the current controllers, I don't fancy losing rumble for some gimmick that was boring 5 minutes after playing Motocross Madness on a PC with a Sidewinder pad yonks ago.
sionevs 16 May 2006 17:42
2/14
How can sony get away with this. Its such a blatent rip off if I was Iwata i would be physicaly sick.
And isnt this a bit of deja vu? Anyone remember the N64? The analog stick and rumble add-on? And who bolted the idea on last minute and proclaimed it there own?
Ill give you three gueses
And isnt this a bit of deja vu? Anyone remember the N64? The analog stick and rumble add-on? And who bolted the idea on last minute and proclaimed it there own?
Ill give you three gueses
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TollyBoy 16 May 2006 19:48
3/14
Bentley wrote:
This is the one thing that has put me off PS3 so far. The price is a lot, but you pay for it once and then you have it for as long as it lasts. But to strip the rumble and take the whole immersive effect out of the next-gen of games is a shocking move that has upset a lot of gamers.
Rumble - 'whole immersive effect'? Huh, makes me feel about as immersed in a game as treading in a puddle makes me feel like I'm skin diving. this isn't a direct neural feedback mate, it's a wet fart in the palm of your hand
Chappers 16 May 2006 19:56
4/14
I can't work out why so many people, and so many websites seem to think that motion tracking/gyro control is Nintendo's idea, and that Sony is copying them.
This technology has been in existance for a long time, and it's only natural that a game console should have control methods evolve away from simple D-pad/analogue pad methods. If anything, Microsoft are guilty of not pushing the boundaries away from this simple comfort zone.
It does seem an odd coincidence that Sony chose to reveal their gyro controller at so late a stage in the console's pre-launch timetable, but as the patent that was mentioned (and has been mentioned in the past but like now, has been curiously glossed over) suggests, motion tracking of some form was always on the cards. And of course the moment PS2 was launched, PS3 went into design stage, so who's to say it wasn't always penned for the final product?
So enough bickering, and let's all rejoice in the fact that in the case of the PS3 and the Wii, the gamer is going to get to experience some new things for which we should all be happy about.
This technology has been in existance for a long time, and it's only natural that a game console should have control methods evolve away from simple D-pad/analogue pad methods. If anything, Microsoft are guilty of not pushing the boundaries away from this simple comfort zone.
It does seem an odd coincidence that Sony chose to reveal their gyro controller at so late a stage in the console's pre-launch timetable, but as the patent that was mentioned (and has been mentioned in the past but like now, has been curiously glossed over) suggests, motion tracking of some form was always on the cards. And of course the moment PS2 was launched, PS3 went into design stage, so who's to say it wasn't always penned for the final product?
So enough bickering, and let's all rejoice in the fact that in the case of the PS3 and the Wii, the gamer is going to get to experience some new things for which we should all be happy about.
LUPOS 16 May 2006 20:36
5/14
Chappers wrote:
I can't work out why so many people, and so many websites seem to think that motion tracking/gyro control is Nintendo's idea, and that Sony is copying them.
it's simple really, gyroscopic control device are very very old, you are certainly right. however no one has ever based a consoles standard controller on such a different aproch to input. The fact remains that if nintendo had not garnered as much intrest with wii as they have then sony would have probably never bothered to impliment this obviously tacked on feature.
Chappers wrote:
This technology has been in existance for a long time, and it's only natural that a game console should have control methods evolve away from simple D-pad/analogue pad methods. If anything, Microsoft are guilty of not pushing the boundaries away from this simple comfort zone.
oh, so shame on MS for releasing their console early enough to not rip off nintendo... shame shame shame MS!
Chappers wrote:
It does seem an odd coincidence that Sony chose to reveal their gyro controller at so late a stage in the console's pre-launch timetable, but as the patent that was mentioned (and has been mentioned in the past but like now, has been curiously glossed over) suggests, motion tracking of some form was always on the cards. And of course the moment PS2 was launched, PS3 went into design stage, so who's to say it wasn't always penned for the final product?
coincidence? seriously? your delusional. as for the often touted sony patents on motion tracking they all have to do with trackign through video... I.E. eyetoy use.
Chappers wrote:
So enough bickering, and let's all rejoice in the fact that in the case of the PS3 and the Wii, the gamer is going to get to experience some new things for which we should all be happy about.
new things? hardly... they have had pc game pads with built in gyroscopes since the late 90's that could be configured to work with any game that took analog joystiq inputs... like.. i dunno... flying games? oh, and fyi... the producers of the two most well known varieties are logitech and.... wait for it.... microsoft!! OH MY!
i can assure you the wii is a completley original and incredibly well implimented idea. its not just as simple as... i move my hand and it happens ont he screen. the way it which it is done is incredibly clever and natrual. I will admit playing warhawk with the dual-ripoff (note to all i coined that term right now, see if it sticks) was fun, and im sure sony will put out some good quality tiles that use it... but that certainly doesnt change the fact that sony are VERY obviously jumping on a bandwagon in hopes of giving themselves any little talking point they can.
and did you notice the menu button in the cneter o the control with the ps logo on it thats used to acces the dashboard? genius, really inventive stuff!
if you wana get a ps3 more power to you... i will as soon as i can afford to... but don't delude yourself.
________
vault 13 16 May 2006 22:47
6/14
Lupos wrote:
oh, so shame on MS for releasing their console early enough to not rip off nintendo... shame shame shame MS!
Actually, I think on Gamespot, it was reported that good ol' Microsoft has [ut in patents for motion sensing equipment similar to Nintendo's own. So there, they are not above or below. They are at best on par with Sony. Whether they utilize it or not is their option, but they're copping it indeed.
And anyways, there ain't nothing wrong with copying technology. We're all better now that all manufacturers have adopted analog (analouge for you english chaps if you couldn't understand our wonky Americanization of your language] controls. And I can only assume we will all be better for motion sensing. Don't be pissed that Nintendo won't be as special anymore. Fanboys, LAY YOUR SWORD AND SHIELD DOWN AND REJOICE IN THE NEXT REVOLUTION OF GAMING!
warbaby 16 May 2006 22:52
7/14
I laughed at this at first, then I kind of cried, then suddenly got the urge to piss all over my PSP. I'm just glad I'm not buying my PSP games and feeding my cash to Sony. If the developers weren't aware of this controller feature until a few weeks before E3, then I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume it hasn't been in R&D since the PS3's conception a millenia ago. How much time has Sony had for puttitng this thing together? The rumors hitting the fan about all the demo's at E3 were being run by PC's...
You know, last week I was saying that Wii was a good name because it was creating news. And that any hype and attention for a business is good hype and attention. I'm going to say that when people accuse you of "stealing", it's not so great.
They should just go ahead and call it the Piii. My money is on the fact that most developers won't be implementing this new technology in their release games. If it doesn't catch on, it becomes a gimmick... gimmicks are bad Sony, gimmicks are bad.
You know, last week I was saying that Wii was a good name because it was creating news. And that any hype and attention for a business is good hype and attention. I'm going to say that when people accuse you of "stealing", it's not so great.
They should just go ahead and call it the Piii. My money is on the fact that most developers won't be implementing this new technology in their release games. If it doesn't catch on, it becomes a gimmick... gimmicks are bad Sony, gimmicks are bad.
LUPOS 17 May 2006 04:20
8/14
vault 13 wrote:
Actually, I think on Gamespot, it was reported that good ol' Microsoft has [ut in patents for motion sensing equipment similar to Nintendo's own. So there, they are not above or below. They are at best on par with Sony. Whether they utilize it or not is their option, but they're copping it indeed.
wow dave, just pick the one thing about ms and argue about it. you really do this just for the hell of it don't ya.
MS are all over stealing a good idea, im not denyign that. in this particular case they are as of right now innocent in regard to the motion sense fiasco.
also as i said and as you probably know, gyros in controllers is old news in pc land, i can go by a gyro mouse at best buy right now. works exactly the same and would be just as easy to use as the dual-s**t. The real point isnt who came up with motion sensing in general its the fact that untill nintneod made it a system standard for thier machine no one had ever made a console that had it built in. closest thing wast that weird stick for the atari and the power glove for the nes.
warbaby:
They where running on some sort fo rack mounted systems at e3. they wherent being sneaky about it either, it was in a huge glass cae in the center of each kiosk for all to very easily see. As of now the cell and the gpo should be pretty much finalized and they are just workign on getting all the peieces aranged together. I'm sure th emachines they where runnign on where probably the most recent dev kits and did most likely include a cell and GPX.
_____
tyrion 17 May 2006 08:03
9/14
LUPOS wrote:
as for the often touted sony patents on motion tracking they all have to do with trackign through video... I.E. eyetoy use.
LUPOS, you are usually quite well informed, but this time you are smoking crack. Try this link, taken from the story, it goes to a patent that clearly shows at least tilt sensing in a PS1 controller.
There was an interview with Phil Harrison where the "Minority Report" type control method was talked about - this would have used the eyeToy. The patent is for motion sensing with a controller.
LUPOS wrote:
and did you notice the menu button in the cneter o the control with the ps logo on it thats used to acces the dashboard? genius, really inventive stuff!
For f**k's sake LUPOS, did you notice the one in the middle of the Wii controller that has a house on it? Is this innovative because it doesn't use the Wii logo or just because it's from Nintendo?
Get a grip of your fanboy leanings and look at the world through un-tinted glasses!
tyrion 17 May 2006 08:38
10/14
sionevs wrote:
And isnt this a bit of deja vu? Anyone remember the N64? The analog stick and rumble add-on? And who bolted the idea on last minute and proclaimed it there own?
OK, history lesson for the Nintendo fans out there.
First Analogue Controller as Standard on a Console
The Vectrex - 1982
First Console with Four Controller Ports
The Bally Astrocade - 1977
First Force Feedback (rumble) controller
CH Force FX - March 1997 (One month before Rumble Pak) released by the company that seems to have developed the force feedback technology (2nd last paragraph).
Early motion-sensing joypad
Microsoft Sidewinder Freestyle Pro - 2002 ish, as far as I can tell.
So to recap, Nintendo may have popularised the above console innovations, but they didn't invent them or deploy them first. Remember, they were also slow to move to optical disc media, which did hurt the N64 game sales.
Now the disclaimer!
Nintendo did popularise the above technology to the point that most of it is now standard on current consoles. They have made motion sensing the heart of the Wii, not just an add on for some games. They have taken risks, they have refined ideas and they have thrust some into the limelight.
And, sure, Sony and Microsoft have followed Nintendo's lead in places, taking up technology that they have popularised. Sony has also popularised technologies like the eyeToy camera and the motion tracking software that came with it. Again not totally their own tech, but pushed into the limelight by them. Microsoft have, of course, popularised console on-line offerings with Live, again this was done previously on PCs, but Microsoft pushed it onto consoles.
Nintendo is not the sole wellspring of ideas in the games industry as some pundits and fanboys would have us believe.
Jay 17 May 2006 08:55
11/14
vault 13 wrote:
...analouge for you english chaps if you couldn't understand our wonky Americanization of your language
I think you'll find the word is 'bastardisation'.
And with an 'S', not a 'Z'...
Ditto 17 May 2006 11:24
12/14
Jay wrote:
vault 13 wrote:
...analouge for you english chaps if you couldn't understand our wonky Americanization of your language
I think you'll find the word is 'bastardisation'.
And with an 'S', not a 'Z'...
And it's analogue, is it not?
LUPOS 17 May 2006 14:08
13/14
tyrion wrote:
LUPOS, you are usually quite well informed, but this time you are smoking crack. Try this link taken from the story, it goes to a patent that clearly shows at least tilt sensing in a PS1 controller.
whoops, missed that. mia culpa. I have seen lots of peopel arguign on multiple forums and most of them site several patents, the grater percentage of which that i have seen have been in regards to the motion sense via vid. An over site on my part.
That doesnt does change the fact that "IN THIS CASE" (as i said in my previous post) nintendo have taken the risk in makeing this a system standard and sony are simpling following the path that nintendo has blazed. (sounds a bit over dramatic i realize)
tyrion wrote:
For f**k's sake LUPOS, did you notice the one in the middle of the Wii controller that has a house on it? Is this innovative because it doesn't use the Wii logo or just because it's from Nintendo?
No one said that Nintendo never copied anyoen elses ideas. i'm not so stupid enough to think that no one can ever copy anyone else in the industry. We woudl have some seriosuly f**ked consoles if they all had to use drasticlaly different controll methods. of course they all might be better for it, but thats a diffeent discussion.
tyrion wrote:
Get a grip of your fanboy leanings and look at the world through un-tinted glasses!
I have no trouble seperating my personal feeligns from the facts at hand (notice the hands on with too human? Some MS fan boy i am) but for purposes of arguing with sony-fanboys on a forum i think pointing out their continual unoriginality is fair game. Nintendo has doen more in the way of path finding in the console space than anyone else except maybe sega (apparently nintendo was better at pickign winniong ideas?). MS's only real inovation is the live service but its a huge one. The closes thing sony can claim is the eyetoy (off the top of my head) which is really probably no more succesfull than the powerpad was in its day. They may say that selling 5 million of them is a good number but consiodering there are like 100million ps2's in circulation its really a pretty low amount (not sure of actual quantitys as i have no idea where to find that out, please correct me if necesary).
So to summerize my opinion as best as possible. I don't think there is anythign inherently wrong with sony putting motion sense in there controller. I'm sure it will be to their and the consumers benefit in the long run. However if they claim this was logn in the comming i'm relatively sure they are full of it. Sure they have some patents lyign around, but as i said, the controls in the new sony pad are no diff than 5 year old pc pads (perhaps older ones didnt measure rotation around the x-axis?) so we all kwno how easy it is to make a gyroscop control on screen action. When talking to the guys at KOEI last week, very big sony suppoorters that they are, they seemed more than a little miffed that sony had this new tilt sensing control and did not tell them as they have a game (fatal inertia) that is bscially half way between wipout and pod racer that woudl be incredibly well suited fot the controller.
Now admitedly they coudl have been planning this for th epast 5 years, and we will probably never know for sure (i'd be fine and dandy with being proved wrong sony...) but the evidence as it stands seems more to the contrary.
pardon my initial spouting but vault ( a good friend of my irl) has an amazing nack for setting me off.
________
tyrion 17 May 2006 17:35
14/14
LUPOS wrote:
That doesnt does change the fact that "IN THIS CASE" (as i said in my previous post) nintendo have taken the risk in makeing this a system standard and sony are simpling following the path that nintendo has blazed. (sounds a bit over dramatic i realize)
And I agree with you, even if they have had it in development for over seven years, they put it into the PS3 as a reaction to Wii. As I said in the story "However, there was no evidence what so ever that the technology was slated for PS3 until this year's E3." (I added some sections to the story that Adam wrote)
That wasn't what I was talking about, that's why I only replied to the bit about the patents.
LUPOS wrote:
for purposes of arguing with sony-fanboys on a forum i think pointing out their continual unoriginality is fair game.
And I think it's just fanning the flames, but each to their own. I try to write as unbiased as I can on these forums, trying to take blinkered opinions down a peg or two. I was a bit short with you, and I apologise, but I'm up to here (can't indicate 'cos it's over my head a ways) with the current crop of Sony hateboys that have recently surfaced. They seem to have most of the sites and blogs I read sewn up and just proliferate their "common knowledge" "Sony is evil" "facts". Most of which have very little basis in fact. I flipped out and attacked you, sorry about that, you just happened to push the button on about six months of pent-up rage at the stupidity of it all.
LUPOS wrote:
They may say that selling 5 million of them is a good number but consiodering there are like 100million ps2's in circulation its really a pretty low amount (not sure of actual quantitys as i have no idea where to find that out, please correct me if necesary).
I think Sony are saying abour 105 Mil worldwide, 5 mil eyeToys is quite a lot for an add on I believe. If only slightly over 5% of PS2 owners have bought one, that's about half the percentage of Xbox1 owners who bought a Live subscription (last I heard it was about 10%) and that is considered a roaring success.