Lionhead's Project Natal Video... Fakery?
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Topic started: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:35
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Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:55
Everyone Reached for the googles, being its a game, you know its interactive and as such wouldnt you reach for them as not to feel like you lost? i dont think anyone actually reached for them expecting real googles to leap out of the TV or did they? how many people did milo throw glasses at?
Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:41
Project Surface look it up, classic microsoft preemptive strike. If they see something as a threat they put together a stupid fake demo of new "technology" about 10 months before it hits the market then when it does it completely under delivers
Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:11
digss wrote:
Project Surface look it up, classic microsoft preemptive strike. If they see something as a threat they put together a stupid fake demo of new "technology" about 10 months before it hits the market then when it does it completely under delivers
This is interesting...because NIntendo showed WiiMotionPlus at E3 2008 expecting Sony and MS to come out then with their alternatives...a kind of pre-emptive strike on their pre-emptive strikes...that never happened, untill now...with no games to show...unlike Nintendo...
Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:40
I'd just like to ask everyone to go and dig out the 2005 concept trailer for the PSEye. Among other things it had - a hand controlled XMB, Facial Recognition login, 1:1 capture of movements (the robots copying the lad), augmented reality of a kid putting on a virtual helmet (although to be fair Sony do seem to be leading in the augmented reality space), a virtual pet (which did actually make it into production), and of course Eyedentify - featuring supposed one on one interaction with a virtual character that understood his voice and recognised his gestures (smiling/laughing and the girl asking "what's so funny?"). I bought a PSEye at launch due to that trailer but was left disappointed and it's barely been used since the day it was bought, MS are probably hoping these trailers will encourage 360 owners to do the same thing.
Just because these mocked up proof of concepts and tech demos are shown off at the birth of the tech to get people talking about it, doesn't mean it will turn out that way. The guy showing it said himself that it was "an example of where the tech might go in the future".
The only thing Natal adds to the existing Eyetoy and PSEye technology progression is a depth sensor and software to link the depth with the camera image to map the basic movements of a person. This is not revolutionary, it's evolutionary!
Why do people think a fancy depth sensing camera moves AI computing forward 10 years? The problem with voice commands (already used in games like End War) is that each input has to be programmed and a response calculated. Why do people suddenly think that because MS launch that is essentially a new version of their Live Vision camera the Xbox is suddenly able to program AI to an almost sentient level of adhoc speech recognition? I've heard (supposedly) professional games journalists say things like "it'll be great I could walk in and say 'Morrissey' and my 360 will 'hear me' turn on load Last.FM and find a Morrissey song!" - NO IT WON'T! At best you would turn it on yourself, say a pre-programmed command like 'Launch Last.fm' and then waggle your hands through the menus!
Milo will be no more advanced than the PS3's EyePet, if Milo actually exists outside this demo at all. If anything it is the PS3 that is more geared up to the sort of massive computations required to mimic sentient response, it's the type of calculation the Cell is designed for. Not to mention the Blu-ray drive for storing the code and the responses (Milo sounded way too good and emotional for it to be a synthesised voice). Both reasons why the multi-branching Heavy Rain is PS3 exclusive.
Also, as well as the dodgy interactions timing of Milo there are more serious issues with that video - the drawing for example could not by any stretch of the imagination be processed by the camera by casually wiping it in front of it for a split second at point-blank range - it would still have to work like EyePet where you would have to hold it steady for a couple of seconds far enough away for it to be in focus and all on screen. Also, as pointed out, either Natal as the worlds widest-angle lens or the entire scene of her being an inch way from the screen and her image still being captured at a near 90 degree angle was fake. And most fundamentally of all - the camera she was using was a dummy prototype of the final design, just like the dummy one used in the mocked up trailer before it. The real prototypes used for the stage demos looked nothing like this.
Do you really think a family sitting in a darkened room at various angle from the TV will be able to be picked out by this magic camera at a distance, and have it recognise subtle movements like tapping the top of your hand? Not this generation that's for sure. It will need brightly light, a narrow viewing angle and lot's of big exaggerated movements.
I love how 360 fanboys who used to call the Wii, call PSEye games, laugh at SIXAXIS motion that could just have easily been a button, and poke fun at concepts like EyePet now have to be a little less dismissive as that is their console's future! For me the 360 has veered far too drastically into the casual market - where are the fanboys now that called PS3 for not focussing on gaming? Now that this years conference from Sony was defined by games and exclusives, and Microsoft's was defined by Facebook and Twitter!
Unlike the PS3 Motion Controller, I'm honestly struggling to see practical application for Natal outside basic of party games like those shown on stage, the Eyetoy genre. At least the PS3 version is accurate and lag free enough to have possible hardcore gaming applications.
I say show me the final retail release (and it's price) and actual retail games before you convince me about it's potential (and I think you'd be lucky if that happens before 2011). My guess is MS are hoping gullible consumers and press sing the praises of the future of technological interaction coming to the 360 and go out and buy one without waiting (afterall there's no harm with you being disappointed with the final results after you've already handed your money to them!). This level of deception (for want of a better word) far far exceeds the E3 2005 Killzone 2 trailer the 360 fanboys and press made a big fuss about, but yet no one seems to mind faked Natal movies (at least KZ2 ended up very close to it, which will be more than can be said for Natal)!
I also think that depriving one of your senses - touch - could be more jarring to people than having to hold a controller - remember these are the same 360 owners that held the feeling for force-feedback in such high esteem. Quotes I've seen so far include Tony Hawks saying they looked at it for RIDE but ruled it out as it didn't feel natural or fun to pretend to be on a skate board plus it wasn't accurate and made executing some moves impossible, EA saying the concept of the Sony control will be much easier to develop for, and someone who tried a tech demo version of Burnout Paradise saying it felt a bit weird standing up with his hands out front pretending he was holding a wheel.
Put it this way - had Sony of unveiled this tech with pie in the sky 'concept trailers' the response would have been no where near as positive! It's just another example of the internet blogsphere having a seemingly unshakable grudge against Sony 'winning' a 3rd generation on the run!
Just because these mocked up proof of concepts and tech demos are shown off at the birth of the tech to get people talking about it, doesn't mean it will turn out that way. The guy showing it said himself that it was "an example of where the tech might go in the future".
The only thing Natal adds to the existing Eyetoy and PSEye technology progression is a depth sensor and software to link the depth with the camera image to map the basic movements of a person. This is not revolutionary, it's evolutionary!
Why do people think a fancy depth sensing camera moves AI computing forward 10 years? The problem with voice commands (already used in games like End War) is that each input has to be programmed and a response calculated. Why do people suddenly think that because MS launch that is essentially a new version of their Live Vision camera the Xbox is suddenly able to program AI to an almost sentient level of adhoc speech recognition? I've heard (supposedly) professional games journalists say things like "it'll be great I could walk in and say 'Morrissey' and my 360 will 'hear me' turn on load Last.FM and find a Morrissey song!" - NO IT WON'T! At best you would turn it on yourself, say a pre-programmed command like 'Launch Last.fm' and then waggle your hands through the menus!
Milo will be no more advanced than the PS3's EyePet, if Milo actually exists outside this demo at all. If anything it is the PS3 that is more geared up to the sort of massive computations required to mimic sentient response, it's the type of calculation the Cell is designed for. Not to mention the Blu-ray drive for storing the code and the responses (Milo sounded way too good and emotional for it to be a synthesised voice). Both reasons why the multi-branching Heavy Rain is PS3 exclusive.
Also, as well as the dodgy interactions timing of Milo there are more serious issues with that video - the drawing for example could not by any stretch of the imagination be processed by the camera by casually wiping it in front of it for a split second at point-blank range - it would still have to work like EyePet where you would have to hold it steady for a couple of seconds far enough away for it to be in focus and all on screen. Also, as pointed out, either Natal as the worlds widest-angle lens or the entire scene of her being an inch way from the screen and her image still being captured at a near 90 degree angle was fake. And most fundamentally of all - the camera she was using was a dummy prototype of the final design, just like the dummy one used in the mocked up trailer before it. The real prototypes used for the stage demos looked nothing like this.
Do you really think a family sitting in a darkened room at various angle from the TV will be able to be picked out by this magic camera at a distance, and have it recognise subtle movements like tapping the top of your hand? Not this generation that's for sure. It will need brightly light, a narrow viewing angle and lot's of big exaggerated movements.
I love how 360 fanboys who used to call the Wii, call PSEye games, laugh at SIXAXIS motion that could just have easily been a button, and poke fun at concepts like EyePet now have to be a little less dismissive as that is their console's future! For me the 360 has veered far too drastically into the casual market - where are the fanboys now that called PS3 for not focussing on gaming? Now that this years conference from Sony was defined by games and exclusives, and Microsoft's was defined by Facebook and Twitter!
Unlike the PS3 Motion Controller, I'm honestly struggling to see practical application for Natal outside basic of party games like those shown on stage, the Eyetoy genre. At least the PS3 version is accurate and lag free enough to have possible hardcore gaming applications.
I say show me the final retail release (and it's price) and actual retail games before you convince me about it's potential (and I think you'd be lucky if that happens before 2011). My guess is MS are hoping gullible consumers and press sing the praises of the future of technological interaction coming to the 360 and go out and buy one without waiting (afterall there's no harm with you being disappointed with the final results after you've already handed your money to them!). This level of deception (for want of a better word) far far exceeds the E3 2005 Killzone 2 trailer the 360 fanboys and press made a big fuss about, but yet no one seems to mind faked Natal movies (at least KZ2 ended up very close to it, which will be more than can be said for Natal)!
I also think that depriving one of your senses - touch - could be more jarring to people than having to hold a controller - remember these are the same 360 owners that held the feeling for force-feedback in such high esteem. Quotes I've seen so far include Tony Hawks saying they looked at it for RIDE but ruled it out as it didn't feel natural or fun to pretend to be on a skate board plus it wasn't accurate and made executing some moves impossible, EA saying the concept of the Sony control will be much easier to develop for, and someone who tried a tech demo version of Burnout Paradise saying it felt a bit weird standing up with his hands out front pretending he was holding a wheel.
Put it this way - had Sony of unveiled this tech with pie in the sky 'concept trailers' the response would have been no where near as positive! It's just another example of the internet blogsphere having a seemingly unshakable grudge against Sony 'winning' a 3rd generation on the run!
Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:25
2:35-38
mentioned in article, but I think this is a clearer description: actor brings both hands to chest before left hand reaches out and the right drops to the side. The "reflection" shows the right arms always at the side.
2:45-48
actor brings hands together, but the "reflection" lags considerably.
Now, there was something odd about the reflection - I think it might actually be a CG avatar that mimics the player's movements rather than being a composite of the camera's view. This would explain the impossible camera angle. However, if this was a real demo then the motion tracking software isn't doing such a great job of keeping up with the action.
I think the camera could get a line on the hands if it has the right lens, and I think most if not all of the demonstrated motion tracking is do-able.
However, I think that this video was completely faked for impact.
mentioned in article, but I think this is a clearer description: actor brings both hands to chest before left hand reaches out and the right drops to the side. The "reflection" shows the right arms always at the side.
2:45-48
actor brings hands together, but the "reflection" lags considerably.
Now, there was something odd about the reflection - I think it might actually be a CG avatar that mimics the player's movements rather than being a composite of the camera's view. This would explain the impossible camera angle. However, if this was a real demo then the motion tracking software isn't doing such a great job of keeping up with the action.
I think the camera could get a line on the hands if it has the right lens, and I think most if not all of the demonstrated motion tracking is do-able.
However, I think that this video was completely faked for impact.
Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:15
As there been any negative feedback about Natal from games journos anywhere? If not this leads me to 2 possible scenarios.
A: It works as advertised, if so why is it only being demoed behind closed doors?
B: Microsoft have allowed money to talk and journos are not giving an honest appraisal, Halo 3 anyone?
One thing though Microsoft have certainly won the PR war, but what I don't understand is the amount of flack Sony got from the pre-rendered game demos of Killzone2 and Motorstorm, hasn't been flung at Microsoft from there pre-rendered Natal stuff.
A: It works as advertised, if so why is it only being demoed behind closed doors?
B: Microsoft have allowed money to talk and journos are not giving an honest appraisal, Halo 3 anyone?
One thing though Microsoft have certainly won the PR war, but what I don't understand is the amount of flack Sony got from the pre-rendered game demos of Killzone2 and Motorstorm, hasn't been flung at Microsoft from there pre-rendered Natal stuff.
Fri, 5 Jun 2009 15:59
Why don't you go google some hands on Natal reviews and then rewrite your article. This completely short sighted, and comes off as a fanboy column trying to shoot down Microsoft. Everyone who got to try it out said it worked just like the demo. They got to put on the goggle and go fishing, and they said it tracked the movements and depth rather well.
They also got a presentation of how things work behind the scenes. The depth is measured by a heat sensor. Apparently you want this to suck, but the reality is it works as advertised according to those who got to use it hands on.
They also got a presentation of how things work behind the scenes. The depth is measured by a heat sensor. Apparently you want this to suck, but the reality is it works as advertised according to those who got to use it hands on.
Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:29
@ Oh Please
1. This article is bouncing off the credibility of the video. See the article title? That's a clue to the scope of the article, that is.
2. The reviews I've read indicate (sometimes out and out confirm) that Milo's responses are canned and don't convincingly correspond to questions directed at it (in fact it doesn't seem much smarter, possible less so as it adheres to a script, than an implementation of Eliza or Nial)
3. Molyneux says that the player Clair isn't acting, but she's clearly asking questions that stick to a script and won't pull back the curtain to reveal Milo's a heaving pile of non-committal shrugs and expressions when take of track. She also feigns concern about an NPC, demonstrating a level of emotional bonding that none of the reviews confirm.
Ergo, the video is faked. It's a sham staged to make Nadal look more impressive than it really is. So you can wave your hands about and make the water ripple. Big f**king deal - noone gave a s**t about that bit, it was Milo's supposed AI that grasped everyone's eye and that fact it's fake is a deal breaker for me. The rest is just EyeToy.
1. This article is bouncing off the credibility of the video. See the article title? That's a clue to the scope of the article, that is.
2. The reviews I've read indicate (sometimes out and out confirm) that Milo's responses are canned and don't convincingly correspond to questions directed at it (in fact it doesn't seem much smarter, possible less so as it adheres to a script, than an implementation of Eliza or Nial)
3. Molyneux says that the player Clair isn't acting, but she's clearly asking questions that stick to a script and won't pull back the curtain to reveal Milo's a heaving pile of non-committal shrugs and expressions when take of track. She also feigns concern about an NPC, demonstrating a level of emotional bonding that none of the reviews confirm.
Ergo, the video is faked. It's a sham staged to make Nadal look more impressive than it really is. So you can wave your hands about and make the water ripple. Big f**king deal - noone gave a s**t about that bit, it was Milo's supposed AI that grasped everyone's eye and that fact it's fake is a deal breaker for me. The rest is just EyeToy.
Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:51
@Rutabaga
yea but Killzone 2 and motor storm delivered. Killzone 2 is even better then what the trailer showed.
yea but Killzone 2 and motor storm delivered. Killzone 2 is even better then what the trailer showed.
Fri, 5 Jun 2009 17:20
Pointless article here. Until you get to try the Demo out you shouldn't even post something as stupid as this.
While I agree with you, accusing something of being fake is pointless. Go try it out for yourself.
While I agree with you, accusing something of being fake is pointless. Go try it out for yourself.
Fri, 5 Jun 2009 21:55
If you're looking forward to Project Natal, be sure to check out ***n00b weblink removed*** for all the latest news and info.
Sat, 6 Jun 2009 01:12
Yeah this is all staged, you can clearly tell basically through out the video.
Milo is fake as it comes and Natal is nothing more then MS attempt at Sony eyetoy.
Peter Molyneux also never delievers on his titles, he hypes them through the roof then 2 days later your wondering why did you ever buy the game. MS needs to get their stuff right. I mean Windows Vista any one?
Milo is fake as it comes and Natal is nothing more then MS attempt at Sony eyetoy.
Peter Molyneux also never delievers on his titles, he hypes them through the roof then 2 days later your wondering why did you ever buy the game. MS needs to get their stuff right. I mean Windows Vista any one?
Sat, 6 Jun 2009 01:16
That is, of course, unless Milo's pond can recognise a hand movement before it's made
Actually that is one of the main functions of Natal, read the article about how interpolation is heavilly used to predict motion and position when the player is a bit off the camera and i guess will also be used to make the input a lot less
Also i can't see the issue in 2:37, the ripples all seem correct according to the hand positions
Actually that is one of the main functions of Natal, read the article about how interpolation is heavilly used to predict motion and position when the player is a bit off the camera and i guess will also be used to make the input a lot less
Also i can't see the issue in 2:37, the ripples all seem correct according to the hand positions
Sat, 6 Jun 2009 01:20
Oh man, wake up. Milo was 'presented' to a lot of people and this video was proved as entirelly truth. Get a life. =P
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