More Cell performance claims emerge

I refer the right honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago. :-)


AMD just make Intel clones, 100% compatible Intel clones. They play catch up all the time because they have to stay 100% compatible or they die. They are never going to make Intel change anything since they have to use all of their effort to stay in line.


Why should everybody just use evolution to keep pace with Intel when a quick revolution now and then keeps everybody on their toes?

Plus this is not just Sony it is not Sony trying to take over the world, it's a consortium of companies. OK it's only three at the moment, but why aren't you worried about IBM? They actually have a presence in the desktop market and the server market and the laptop market. How about Toshiba? They are in all the markets that Sony is, bar gaming consoles. Aren't they trying to take over the world?

And they are not just trying to take over the world themselves. They will be licensing the chips out to all and sundry to make use of. Many of whom will be in competing markets.

I know your stated "support the underdog" stance in the games market is why you are so anti-Sony and pro-Microsoft when talking about consoles. What's your justification here? The Cell consortium is the underdog to Intel. Why aren't we hearing you wax lyrical about the innovations that the underdog is bringing to the market, or the much needed competition keeping the market leader on its toes?

Could it be that you just don't like Sony for changing the games market and allowing "casual" games into our illustrious ranks?

i missed that... and i understand what you are gettign at but i dont think it is going to pan out.





there have been points in recent years where amd was putting out noticably superior products to intels... they have probably done more to push intel than any one, although i suppose you could argue that by forcing constant MHz upgrades they have actually prevented each other from working on any real revolutions... i woudln't say that... but you could



ahh the revolutions of computing... like... uh.... well... the micochip! thats one... and uh... yeah... thats it... its been basically the same thing since 1980... just bigger better faster more... untill they start making all solid stat tech... or maybe they get that whole quantum computing thing working, there arent going to be any big "revolutions". what is a call processor... well its going to need ram... and a hard drive... and a bus... and it will work with standard cat5 wired netowork. yea... it will be designed differently and handle info in a different way... but its not like we will be switchign to trinary anytime soon.



IBM? They seem like good guys to me... supporting open source... backign the MAC... fighting "the man" (microsoft). every company woudl in theory liek to take over the world... that is the ultimate goal of every company... to be the biggest and best... to destoy competition. But some are just tyriong harder than others.



it wont be a competing market is sony's bread is buttered with processor saisl and royalties instead of manufacturing... seems to me getting a new pc standard alll over the place and supplying the operating instructiosn for it kidn of one ups M$... M$ only xists if intel and amd keep making chips to run their OS, and vice versa... sony and toshiba woudl be in cahoots... owning both sides of the fence together. there wont be a linux for cell if sony doesnt want their to be... there wont be an amd to compete against cell... there wont be anythign but want sony allows there to be.




for me amd and linux and ibm = underdogs in the pc market (and mac too i guess)... there seems to be plenty of worth whiel things to support in the pc sector... video games however are a very different landscape



oh definitly... everytime i here some jocky Fu#$er on xbox live! calling peopel queers and being a dick it makes me want to kill a puppy!(a.k.a. very angry) i liked video game cultrue... cause it used to be filled with other people like me (and yourselves).

I dont think sony is any worse or any better than M$ over all (all though i personaly like M$ products other than xbox and think that most sony hardware is very porrly made, especailyl for the prices they charge, take a look at the this... they both have their ups and downs... it just seems to me that people are so obsessed with pointing out evey sketchy thing that M$ does that they dont bother carring when sony does it... even spong (which i love) is more than happy to call M$ on every little thing they do, but when i point out that sony has a similar scheme the response is just, well M$ is eviler!

im just trying to get some "fair and balanced" (thats a joke) video game news. i am a sad bored man posting on a forum, i'm aloud to have personal opinions invade my ranting... any one who reffers to themselves as a porveyor(spelling?) of news needs to hold themselves to a higher (i.e. less biased) standard.
___________

Didn't IBM provide the Nazis with a computer system for cataloguing the Holocaust victims?

That's the sort of thing I was getting at. Intel creating "trick" instruction sets like MMX, dual coring the 486 to make a Pentium, dual coring the P4 with "HT technology". They are quick tricks and not a platform enhancement.

Intel is stuck with making chips that run Windows and since even MS doesn't know how many sort routines are in the Windows source code (I've heard more than 10) I don't see it moving chips very quickly. NT used to have a hardware abstraction layer that made PPC and Alpha versions possible, but so much of XP hits the hardware directly now, this is no longer the case.


Well yes, today nearly every computer has a Von Neumann architecture, they have just been getting faster roughly in line with Moore's law (and revised version thereof).

However, there have been many revolutions in computing since Mr. Turing designed Colossus.

Storage for one. Transistors and microprocessors are biggies. Disk-based operating systems were a big revolution, instead of a hard-wired interpreter. Hard drive technology was a big revolution to the PC market, as was CD-based storage and distribution. The Internet was a quiet revolution that we are still feeling the effects of now. Speaking of which, the web would be almost useless without graphical OSs, the mouse and monitors. Graphics cards and DSPs of all varieties made a big difference. So did expanable busses and DMA, which made them possible.

All of the above were new technologies that revolutionised the design of general purpose computing devices. Some were technologically just evolutions of existing concepts - you could say that a hard drive is just a fancy drum memory for example - but the impact they had was huge and enabling.

None of the above takes any account of software revolutions either.


But, LUPOS, IBM are part of the Cell consortium, they will be making the chips first, they will be using them to build PC-alikes. Surely this means they are "Trying to take a short cut and beat M$ to their goal of total digital domination" as you so eagerly put it when talking about Sony?


So Sony and Toshiba are evil, but IBM aren't? I'm confused here. Is Cell going to be evil or not?

And there will be a Linux for Cell as long as they sell the processors. Someone will clean room the instruction set even if IBM don't release the architecture-specific back-end to gcc to allow Linus and co. to just compile the source code. I'll bet that the first thing IBM compile for Cell will be gcc, after that probably Linux its self and then the GNU tools.

You really seem to be hung up on Sony in the Cell Consortium, they are in it with two other companies, they are going to work together and IBM is the big fish in that pond. If Sony piss them off, all they have to do is withdraw the ability to use a PPC as the controlling core in Sony-produced Cell processors.

Let me spell it out for you.

Sony don't own Cell.
Sony aren't the largest owner of IP in the Cell Consortium.
Sony can't take over Cell.
Sony can't go against the wishes of IBM and Toshiba with respect to Cell.
There is more peer review in the Cell architecture than with the i386 or i686 architectures.


I bet that's the first time IBM have ever been referred to as an underdog. One or two of their products may be an underdog in a specific market, but never the whole of Big Blue.

The problem with your statement is that the PC market and the video games market are merging, have been ever since Doom made such an impact. Also every other microprocessor-controlled electronics market is merging.

A company that is large in servers, PCs and consoles is going to have a large hand in planning the rest of the digital markets. At the moment, Microsoft are that company, not Sony. If there is a threat to techno-diversity it comes from Microsoft, not Sony. Unless MS jump on the Cell bandwagon and port WIndows, Cell will never become big. MS can cruise along using only Intel and still take over more of the world. Just because Cell can be used in TVs, DVD players and the like doesn't mean it will be. Intel CPUs can be used there too, but when was the last time you saw an "Intel Inside" sticker on a DVD player?

I think the dilution of the hardcore gaming market is a topic for another thread. I brought it up to take a dig at what I saw as your blinkered bias against Sony.

woa... my bad... way to focus on one point... ok so my uninformed ass didnt realize (or actually forgot) that ibm was the third part of the new trilateral comision... ok... i will be sure to pay more attention to IBM in the future... my only point from the beging is that this could just as easily "trojan horse" (man i love that quote) your life just as well if not better than M$'s plans. i want reports on sonys doings to included the same scheptic views expressed when talking about M$... or no schepticism for either, your choice i guess. I am fairly into computers and big into video games so im not goign to try and fight you on those(pc related) points. (Although i dont consider hard drives to be on par with the microprocesors, computing has worked roughly the sme since them (micochips that is).. there have been logical progressions... storage got smaller... so they put more info there... including the os... and cd's are just floppys , which are just tape drives... which are just big boxes full of punch cards)

let me lay it out for YOU
THIS IS A VIDEO GAME NEWS SIGHT (and internet video game archive, of course)
thsi sights reporting has consitently bashed M$ for trying to move into multiple markets but thinks there is nothign worng with anyoen else doing the same thing... as illustrated by the report where spong praised itself for knowign that M$ was "trojan horsing" us even though they said they wouldnt.
they said the "XBOX" would be a video game system... and as it only has about 9 months left to live ... i can safely say they did not lie... if they make any simlar claims about the next box... feel free to bitch... cause they are definitly working on makign it do more than jst play games... no doubt. but you yourself just said that the mergeing of industries is just part of the natural progresion.

so... when M$ makes a game console... says its a game console... and delivers... a good game console... spong bitches... then when they follow the "natural progression" of the industry and the world... you accuse them of tricking us... but if you go to any xbox fan sight and ask.. peopel lvoe hard rives... and netowrk options.. there are tons of polls abotu what shoudl be in the next xbox and peopel keep saying things like "hard drive" and "web browser" and "chat prgram" and any numebr of other pc / home entertainment things, downloadable updates and demos and whatever else.

so fine, IBM sucks too (im no proponent of theirs), but so does the reporting on this sight. I love the way that things are written and the personality in the reports and reviews (and the fact that the peopel who run it actually bother to talk to us pathetic schmos :) )... but there is a difference between giving your writing charcter and infuseing it with your own personal biases. stop worrying about one of the forum posters being biased and check yourselves.

Just because you all agree with each other doesn't mean your right, i think it means your a cult. but thats a different conversation entirely.
___________

wanted to comment on this seperatly...



you show me a quote from someone saying M$ or intell think they shoudl put their product in your tv to help your xbox or pc run faster... go ahead.. lets see it... admitedly this guy isnt working for sony/ibm/toshiba (atleast i dont think, god forbid im wrong) but he seems to know a little something about thier plans, you guys felt him a worthwhiel source after all.

my comment at the beging wa sin refference to the potential for sony/ibm/toshiba to place themselves in a position of being the sol producer of an item that the fabric of our "digital life style hinges on" you get enough cell tvs and cell dvd players and ps3 and whatever elses out their then they have you by the balls... slowly they get rid of the options... narow the field... they arent stupid, they wouldnt just come out one day and declare all out war on the entire electronics sector... this s**t takes time... i just wander why you guys pride your selves for spoting the sun on a clear day that is M$'s evil ploting but dont seem to notice that damn evil sony moon slowly fill at night whiel you sleep.

the only real resolution to any of it is to reinstitue more regulations over here int he usa... keep one company from workign in multiple sectors, keep them from buying each other... you so... some real antimonopolization laws... but untill that happens it is up to us as consumers to regulate big buisness... and letting the broken button psp making style whores at sony make everythting is going to lead to a much nicer looking version of windows ruinnign on a pcc (personal cell computer) with a busted blu-ray drive.

oh no! it's as if they want the trojans to rape their women and kill their children... if only spong had a way to warn them about the error of their ways... if only...

poor suckers, they have no idea

LUPOS, about 80% of those points would be sorted out if they bought the f**king PC they think they've got!!

not argument there... i know what i bought... im happy with it... its go good games... and no word processor.. there for it is a game machine... as promissed. Go forward however M$ are free and clear to make whatever new promises they want.

and for refference i think most of the things ont here are stupid... it is from xbox.com for cuks sake, but i just wanted to illustrate that M$ folliwng your "natural progression" and giving the peopel what they want doesn't equal up do bad business or bad video games. I know why dont you guys make a seperat section on your forum where you can post info about all the bad thing M$ does to the computer industry, and when the video games and computer markets finaly do end up being one... you can stick em back together... hell why don't you guys make a whole other web site devoted to compter information! you can talk about how M$ has ruined computers over there... and then come over to this section and prase them for: a)having the forsight to buy what is now one of the most sucessfull developers in history (bungie) b)getting an exlusive deal with team ninja c)making the best hardware available and offering it at a more than resonable price d) maintaining excellent relations with third party publishers e) creating a huge market share forthem selves after everyone (including yoursaelves probably) thought the xbox was going to be crap as soon as it was anounced.

It probably burns your ass that M$ has managed to make a good well built machine that sold well and has a ton of quality games on... are you going to tell me you didn't play ninja gaiden because windows only worked on a computer with dos on it instead of the generic dos.

i played ico... i loved everyminute of it... i play katamri darmacy every chance i get... infact i baught it for a friend of mine for christmas cause she has a ps2 and i don't... mainly so i coudl play it : )

If you want to talk about M$'s computer issues then do it, but do it in the right place at the right time... not while reporting info about a game console... keep your preconcieved notions out of my news.

or you know what you could report the potential issues that coudl arrise... let me give you an example:

"some people believe that M$ are planing on pushign the xbox as the center of home entertainment convergence in order to get into the large home entertainment market and also give themselves the perfect in for digital distribution. (i.e. mp3's)"

and then in a seperate article

"sony have anoyonced plans to release a digital media distribution software in the comming months. the ass yet unnamed service is deisgned to compete directly with Apple's ipod. It has long been reumored that sony was going to enter the digital distribution market, witht he recent purchase of (whatever the hell movie studio it is the own) and there large role in the development of the new blu-ray technology it apears that sony is indeed taking a stab at apples incredibly think armor."

there... except you guys woudl write it more like a normla person... maybe throw in a joke or a pop culture refference... per haps a snide comment ... but you would be faire... i like facts... i want your opinions on video games not corporate busines practices, and i dont think im alone in saying so.

Now just to be sure... there is no peronal insult ment by any of the conversation and i am not attempting to instigate an argument, if i come off as an ass its only mildly on purpose. In general i love the sight and the stories and the reviws and the archives. You guys (spong team) are each a welth of info and collectively a wonderfull assest to the gaming comunity. Its just unfortunate that you have kind of a bad rep because of things like this.


they say people who ramble have low self esteem because they dont have confidence in their words to acuratly deliver their message... well... at least im not full of myself.
______

That was my point LUPOS, you were laying the threat of world domination at Sony's feet, where it can't possibly be layed. They don't have enough control over the new tech to make good on your fears.

I know where you are coming from in the "monopoly on CPUs" stakes, but I just can't see it happening. There's a reason why Intel are the no.1 manufacturer of CPUs. That's the PC and more specifically PCs running Windows. I can't see MS jumping ship to Cell, it's never going to be a big PC CPU and the other uses for it are more suited to a lighweight OS like some of the embedded Linux variants.


If all you want is video games news with no speculation, slant, bias, analysis or discussion of the implications on the wider world, why don't you just read some press release re-writing site?

If you want to read our analysis of the news, read our site. If you don't agree with our analysis, say so right here. Just don't bitch if we come on here and try to explain why we disagree with you.

We try to bring all of our experience, in other markets to bear on our games news. We try to put games into a wider world, not just report on only the games market.

If you ignore the world outside of the games market, you will miss a lot of why many people think Microsoft is so evil, you will miss a lot of why many people round the world consider Sony a quality-product producer.

To complain that we relate games to the wider world ON A GAMES SITE (the horror) is a bit narrow minded and harkens back to the "alone in the bedroom" style of playing games, where young, disillusioned youth separated themselves from reality because they had no connection to the outside world.


Everyone else has to analyse the market, plan a strategy and make a decent product that can compete in that market.

Microsoft jumps in with a PC in a box, lies about their future plans and throws money at hardware, developers and customers until its platform is accepted.

Which one do you think deserves more respect?


I think we've really covered this before. The difference between the XBox product line and the first XBox product is a fuzzy one that MS can use to their advantage.


You mean when MS chucks a PC in a box?


Those people should just buy a PC with TV out and some decent USB controllers.


It's very hard to write with passion and character about something you don't believe in. Try it some time. Your beliefs colour your writing even when you try to be dispassionate, if they dont, then you are truly detached and probably don't love anything.


No it doesn't make us right, but we have the right to analyse news our way on our site. I'd rather offend some people by stating what I believe, than offend everybody by writing bland, uninteresting slop.

We don't give anybody a free ride at SPOnG, if Sony went back on their word about something, we'd have a go at them. We've been asked to pull stories by all three hardware manufacturers and by several publishers. We've had complaints from every fanboy camp under the sun calling us "my side" bashers and "their side" lovers.

We are naturally distrustful of MS due to their proven record of using illegal tactics to strongarm an industry round to their way of thinking. We have respect for Microsoft for putting in place the best online service of the three platform owners.

We bemoan the fact that Sony seem to allow any old tat onto their platform, not forcing quality control on the publishers. We respect the fact that Sony's hardware, developer relations and marketing has increased the size and worth of the games industry to where it is today.

We are very bemused by the kiddy slant that 90% of Nintendo's games take, a slant they seem to push onto others who publish on their platform. We love Nintendo for the originality of their games and the truly risk-taking approach they take to the industry.

We have similar loves and hates for most of the publishers.

However if one party does more to make us hate them than to love them, of course that's going to come out in our writing. If that's not to other people's tastes, then tough luck, can't please all of the people all of the time. There are plenty of fan sites that will pander to your current likes and dislikes. We hope you'll still read (and post) here, of course, but it's entirely your choice.

How about because we like games, but we know they don't exist in a vacuum? Why should other people's pre-conceived notions of what makes a computer games site affect how we write our news? Why should we not make connections between a company's actions in the games industry to its actions outside of that industry?

Silly examples follow! If EA made Criterion produce a word processing package, wouldn't you like to know? Will this draw resources away from the development of RenderWare? How will this affect the schedule of Burnout4? What if NASA started to use PS3s to drive the shuttle? How about if Sony's TV arm were refusing to accept returns of a faulty product? What if Miamoto-san decided to enter politics and run for office in Japan?

Not to do with the games industry? Not interested?

What if, for example, News Corp. entered the games industry like the scuttlebutt seems to be indicating they will. Do you want us to treat them with kid gloves until their games arm makes a mistake?


The only thing that burns my arse is a right hot curry the night before! :-)

I didn't play Ninja Gaiden because I never got round to it. Suprisingly enough, I don't actually work on SPOnG all day, I work for SPOnG's sister company eleventeenth most of the time and only come to SPOnG in my time off. I also don't just play games when I do get away from the office (there now at 20:52 local time) I have other interests. I don't actually play games that often. I've only just got round to playing "Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time", even though I was sure I'd like it.

That said I play fewer XBox games than PS2 or GameCube, mostly because I don't like the controller. If it's an exceptionally good exclusive game and we get it in, I'll give it a go, but otherwise I don't play most XBox games.

To be honest the rep NG has for being hard has scared me a bit, same with Viewtiful Joe!!


"Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it" - I forget who said that, but it's true. If you forget that MS lied, stole and cheated their way to the top of the software industry, you'll allow them to do the same in the games industry.


You know LUPOS, there's no animosity here either, we obviously have serious differences in our world views. Sometimes that's humourous to me, sometimes it winds me up. I think you're the same.

The problem with our rep is that we don't pander to any one camp or point of view, hence everybody who's a camp follower thinks we're against them, because they only get told about times when we diss their camp. As I've said before, we try to be impartial, but we draw on a wider rage of experiences and memories than just the games industry.


Now that's the sort of thing I love reading from you! You genuinely make me laugh on many occaisions.

where to begin... ill start out by trying to make this brief since i only have 20 min till i leave work and neither one of us is going to be changing the others world views today :)

I dont try and write any sort of anything that i woudl claim to be news... i have some particularly strong opiniosn about certain things... and personaly i dont think i would be very good at it because if i wrote abotu somethign i knew anything about (like games lets say) it woudl also be something i feel strongly about. I do harbor a great deal of anamosity twords sony for multiple reasons. not the least of which is the death of what gaming used to be. It's like someone packaged D&D in such a way that my highscool football team started playing it (for those youngsters out there... imagien magic the gathering, except with alot more imagination and creativity and less spenidng money ons tupid cards). Imagine being a nerd ( a stretch for alot fo us im sure) and you livin in some nothign town soemwhere in america, a springfield of sorts, and you are generaly unhappy with your adolesence. Then lets say once a year there is a sci-fi convention (or comic book, or d&d, whatever your prefference), and its probaly the thing you look forward to most each year, right up there with chrstmas! and then one year you go... and you see a bunch of hot girls... the kind that dont talk to you and make you misserabel at school... and a bunch of jocky guys who you hate, and make you misserabel at school. Christmas is ruined... your safe place your refuge... its gone, befouled, your favorite thing in the world, the thing that is most special to you is being used and abused and disgraced by a bunch of ass holes who have no real concern for it what so ever.

-a bit of a dramatazation i realize, but i am tryign to sell my opinions here :) -

Thats what sony did... to me and to millions of others, maybe they aren't as personlay pissed about it as i am, but maybe they should be. I don't care if they did it the odl fashioned way, they ruined my "thing"!

you guys seem to harbor ill will twords M$ because of their improper buisness practices, but there seems to be little or no anamosity about the fact they they basically single handedly turned what a times has shown signs of being a viable art form and turned it into a mass market s**t fest before it ever reached its prime.

I support M$, maybe underdog was a poor choice of words, because they are the anti sony, and i am still full on pissed at sony! Yes they suck too, they suck real bad, maybe even worse, but when sega makes new weird games (gun valkyrie, shenmue2,) they put it on the xbox. When the best designers want to make trully awsome and original games, often times they go to the xbox(ninja gaiden, steel battalion, fable[yes a let down, but peter M. still demands a certain level of respect]) and ocasionaly to the game cube(resident evil 4, that guy threatened to quit when the suggested porting his masterpeice to so sony's POS).

The more i think about it the more i guess im not really concerned that you guys rag on M$, im really concerned that no one seems to care about sony's mis doings.

If i say "windows sucks" because they are pc's peopel say, "use linux", or "buy a mac"... i say sony sucks casue they are ruining games and people say "shut up xbox fan boy!" im not fan of M$, im a big fan of sega and nintendo (maybe im just getting old), but i am a huge anti sony enthusiast! I revel in every stupid thing they do, i shout it from the roof tops.

so there is that...

as for the site, i aprecite it alot, you write it however you want, its working so far, i just feel a few more sub categories may make things better, avoid some of the debate (although i love the debate so maybe i dont support that idea) but thats just me. I still feel you are harded on M$ than sony unfairly, but as i have gone to great lengths to explain, i may be more biased than anyone, the fire in my eyes makes it hard to see clearly.

well its quitin time... im going home.. and you should too (hell its only 5pm here)... stop wasting your time arguing with me... go play some ninja gaiden... its not that hard... and once you get good at it, it is honest god exilerating!



i aims ta please :)

LUPOS, can I presume you consider the Amiga vs MD vs SNES era the golden age for games? If so, I wholeheartedly agree! Although I think this is mainly due to my age at the time - beginning to code, thus appreciating the technical aspects, yet still impressionable - there is no doubt I found games at this time their most magical and majestic.

Hot damn!

I'm gonna invest my weeks cider money in some sony stock! how would i go about aquiring some? Since i got dismissed from my job at goldman-sak 23 years ago due to 'unpleasantness' i've lost touch with the mover's and shakers' in the city

shalom

Dave

in a sense... i dont think there is any real lack of quality games these days, and there certainly wasn't a lack of crap back in the snes/MD/Amiga(where they real a contender?, j/k) either. I just felt like games where the kind of thing that people like me did. peopel who maybe like comics more than the average kid, or maybe dabled in d&d (and rifts, and gurps, and tmnt, and ninjas and superspies, and robotech and ... uh... you know... dabbled ). Now i feel they are no longer being created witht he same market in mind, thats why nintendo is doing as porrly as it is. They may well make some of the best damn games ever, but gta still wins the coveted "spike tv video game of the year award". I don't know about you but when i watched that shows (i must be a sadist) i knew thats what was going to happen but i just couldn't understand why. Not sayign it isnt a good game, definitly not one of my favorites, but it certainly does have its note worthy points. But this is the same year that ninja gaiden was released, possibly the best controlling most perfectly designed game i have EVER played, Riddick a game that took a decent movie license and turned it into an FPS/FPFighter/Stealth/RPG that did evey aspect perfectly and cinimatically. The same year the first Katamari Darmacy comes out, and it gets no recognition whatsoever. to this day tetris is regarded as one of, if not the most, oerfect game ever made. Now someone goes and makes a similarly sublime puzzle experience in a 3d next gen way and there is no recognition by the masses.


im loosing focus here... nintendo and sega are where they are because there arent enough hard core gamers in the world to make up the high production costs of current generation games. The only way you can aford to make games is to sell them to larger markets... that why sonic has more edge than ever before, and Reggi keeps bullshitting abotu nintendo being for adults too... they are both struggling to keep up with the marketting muscle of sony and M$ and EA... they arent dead yet but someday ninty will most likely end up a software (and GBA) co. and sega is already just a shell of its former greatness. Owned by a gambling machine manufacturer.

The industry i helped to create(by buying the stuff, i certainly dont claim any real responsibility for it) has forgotten me and moved on to the money lined shores of pop culture... i'm a sad panda.