Bach Dismisses Analysts – Bullish About 360 in Japan

nasim007 - "the ps3 is 4x powerful than x360..but u wont be buying one since u are that garbage box fanboy...which has sold just 20 million units compared to 92 million ps2.....homeless on the streets of japan...what a joke...stupid americans cant even lie properly..go and help build new orleans rather than speaking rubbish...send some of your money to world bank...see if u can recover the 7 trillion dollar debt"

Seems to me that if anyone's a fanboy here it's you. As the PS2 proved it's not power that decides the winner, it's marketing and software. For me the Joypad is a big deciding factor over which console i prefer. I'm lucky enough to have all 3 in the current generation and the PS2 is my least favourite - those analogue sticks are horrible and it lacks analogue triggers. Out of the 360 and PS3 I would say the 360 wins hands down for it's joypad design (this is of course without having actually held them in my own hands). The moving of the black and white buttons to the shoulders was all they needed to do. the lesss said about the PS3' the better (and yes I know it's a prototype). On the subject of joypads tho, there is still one contender we are in the dark about.
It's kinda funny this thread started off about xenophobia considering some of your comments. Sad.

You're a silly billy aren't you? I was in Tokyo just last week (holiday, touring reasons - had I gone a week later I could have blagged my way into TGS, gutting but meh) and saw many people sleeping rough on the streets. You have this stupid statistic drilled into your mind. Why, I don't know. Maybe you're one of those "I wanna be Japanese, so Japan does nothing wrong!" idiots. But LUPOS is right. Shinjuku, Tokyo's park just outside the Imperial Palace (can't remember what it's called but it's opposite the Fountain Park) and Shibuya are places where I've seen many people grab a sleeping bag and rough it by the tall tall buildings, or by the train stations.

Instead of being so idiotic and claiming someone can't even afford to go to Japan when you don't even know them (and then spouting more fanboy s**t about PS3), why don't you get some facts straight. Just because you probably cannot afford a trip to Tokyo doesn't mean you should call LUPOS a liar just because he mentions he has.

And disputing your silly PS3 claims isn't the rest of us being XBOX360 fanboys. Quite the opposite. We have the brains to be objective about these things. Oh dear, PS3 is 4 times more powerful than XBOX360, yes? Where's the proof? And I'm not talking about the pre-rendered Killzone demos, or the guff spec sheets that don't mean anything in the long run. The thing is, there won't be any proof until both PS3 and XBOX360 are released to fairly compare the games. And bear in mind both the Gamecube and XBOX was launched about 2 years after the PS2, so as the only console to buy it naturally got an unattainable lead on the competition.

So go on, I know it's difficult, but slip your tool out of Kuturagi's backside and reason with objective opinion.

nasim007... "what a joke..."

Haven't had anyone of the calibre of nasim007 on these boards for a while. Keep it up, mate!

I was thinking the same thing, SPOnG has been fanboy free for quite a while.

here's me lying... dickwad...


also i said i would buy a ps3 if it is indeed more powerful than the 360... cause i am an admitted graphics whore.

but atleast i know it... i love the ps faithfull who just last year where still yelling about how its not about graphics its about gameplay and now that the shoe is on the other foot you guys jump right on the "your system of choice is weaker so it sucks" boat.

if you dont want to agree with me thats your biz... but dont call me a liar... especially when you go around citing theorize tech specs as fact... especially when the whole world knows how good sony is at blatantly lying to its customers in early techs.

twit.

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Being off-topic for a split second; LUPOS, mind telling me where abouts you are in that photo? I don't recognise that area, I guess I missed it. x_x; I guess a week doesn't cover even half the things Tokyo has to offer (bearing in mind it was my first trip out the country, let alone first trip to Japan, I guess I can forgive myself).

On-topic, it sounds like Microsoft are at least learning from their XBOX mistakes and are making some sort of concerted effort with 360. Whether the Japanese will take notice all depends on the performance of Microsoft's J-Launch - it sounds like on the launch title front, things are going to repeat themselves (with PG3, DOA4 and maybe PDZ being the major-hyped titles), which isn't going to bode well in Japan, methinks. MS will need a few Japanese marketable-specific titles at launch to garner early attention. And whereas Sony and Nintendo can take their sweet time with attaining sales after launch, a good first impression is what Microsoft really needs more than anything for XBOX360 to stick in the minds of the Japanese.

to be honest i have no idea what part of town i was even in... there was a large gate thing you walked through... followed by a vry long walkway that at one time was probably very pretty but was now covereed over and turned into a fle-market of sorts... and then at the end was a ratehr large shrine... my friend is who was acting as tour guide is from japan but wasnt exactly full of facts... good for nerd info... knew all kinds of cool out of the way stores in akihabra... but not much for touristy things.

it was actually my first trip there and i was only there for 8 days so we hit a few big land marks and spent most of our time buying toys and merch that i coudlnt get over here without an incredible mark up. not the least of which was my black DS and shonen jump which is an amazingly fun game.

and i do agree with you on the first impression thing... no matter how much M$ struggled the initiall launch was so weak over there they had basically no chance from the get go... which is why they switched so many of their more japanese oriented titles to 360... i still harbor hopes that true fantasies in in production... that would be quite an anouncment for the TGS...

*crosses fingers*

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again you bastard american 200 000 people were turned homeless in USA
here are the maps of people living in one of the poorest nation which has 7 trillion dollars in debt

http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=People+Living+On+The+Streets+Of,+New+York,+NY

http://www.123helpme.com/assets/13097.html

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/numbers.html
http://www.gothamgazette.com/book/socialservices/title/15/332

all these articles are about NY alone that has 50000 homeless people on the streets and again u have never been to japan....i am in USA at the moment and i have been there many times...you get to earn a lot of money there compared to what u earn in US...although living is expensive there...just shut....7 trillion dollars...a number to ponder about

the 256 gflops was claimed by IBM for the 4.0 ghz cell...in e3 u clearly saw that downgarded figure of 218 gflops and also u also heard from IBM that each xenos is exactly the same as normal dual core pc processors and cant do more than 12.8 gflops...in any way the ps3 is easily 4x more powerful than x360

now the SPYRTEK interview

Quote:
/GameStar/dev: So where's the technical journey leading?

Cevat Yerli: In general it's leading to multi-threading, so multi-core and multi-cpu, a streaming architecture, cross platform, and for each pixel there will be at least one shader.

/GameStar/dev: Are you staying with SM3.0 or are you jumping to SM4.0 straight away?

Cevat Yerli: We're gonna support SM2.0 and above

/GameStar/dev: And above?

Cevat Yerli: And above

/GameStar/dev: The new PC processors and the upcoming consoles are heavily applying multithreading. How are you gonna utilize the potential?

Cevat Yerli: We're scaling the individual modules , like animation, physics and parts of the graphics with the cpu, depending how many threads the hardware has to offer. We're going to support both multi-cpu systems and multithreading and multicore. With 3 cpu's with 2 hardware threads each (dual core cpu's) it's possible that we are going to scale for 6 threads. Maybe we're not gonna do it though, depending how fast the individual cores or the cpu-threads are running respectively. We're developing a system that's analyzing how much threading power is available and we are going to scale accordingly.

/GameStar/dev: x86, PowerPC and PowerPC + Cell. All architectures have their own threading organization ...

Cevat Yerli: The 360 solution resembles Hyper threading. In principle it's 2 cpu's with 2 Hyper threads each. If you're asking the hardware manufacturers, that's not the case though. But analyzing it from a software developer’s standpoint it's no different from hyper threading. That means that you're supposed to have 6 threads, but it's only 1.5 threads by 3 in reality. With PS3's cell things are looking differently: the main cpu has 2 threads (slightly better than hyper threading) and then you're getting the synergetic processors. The 8th spu was cut.

/GameStar/dev: Yields?

Cevat Yerli: A pure manufacturing reason. The spu's are not as flexible as your conventional cpu, that's why we have to scale differently.

/GameStar/dev: Between the individual architectures it's almost impossible to port the whole code. You have to at least modify the low level commands. x86 and PowerPC are different, but how easily can you port from one console to the other considering they're both PowerPC based?

Cevat Yerli: You can't port it either really. We're the only german developer that has a PS3 dev kit I believe. Accordingly we can look at the hardware in real life rather than speculating about it. The PS3 is a system that needs further adaptions that are especially written for the PS3 architecture - simply porting just isn't working.

/GameStar/dev: So Sony's claim - you have a nice layer, your throwing your code at it, and everything is working beautifully on Cell - is not the case?

Cevat Yerli: They wish. But it's a long way off that still. The devkits aren't that far either yet. Based on the information on the devkits you have to do a lot of low level work, to get something out of this hardware.

/GameStar/dev: Regarding interprocess-communication: How relevant are the differences between the different multi-threading approaches?

Cevat Yerli: An important question. The following things are very important for hardware based multithreading: Are the threads running on real cores (do they have their own registry set)? Or is there a hardware abstraction like with the PowerPC, where the -two in this case- threads have their own registry sets, but they are still on the same core, so with the issuing of instructions to individual units, both threads can't work at the same time. Multi-threading at hyper threading is only trying to distribute the instructions to the superscalar units (math-operations to integer and float units, load store etc.). With multiple cores the question of bus-connection to the peripherals and to the main memory. How is the cache implemented, are all threads sharing the same cache? Plus: shared memory vs. stand alone local memory. A complete PowerPC core is also part of the cell system. But it's not only an independed processing unit, it's also the host for the individual cell cores. In the cell architecture you
have apart from the PowerPC core also individual cell cores that are connected through an ultra-high end-bus and can communicate with each other independently. If you exploit the optimized parallelizing, you can achieve a linear scaling over all cell cores.

/GameStar/dev: How are multi-core systems behaving on single-core pc's?

Cevat Yerli: As developers we are in the worst possible situation. We have to support 32 and 64 bit, Single and Multicore cpu's, single and multithreading, cell and not-cell and OpenGL and DirectX. The expenditure to develop one technology, that is utilizing all those parameters perfectly is extremely high. The technical expenditure is at least twice as highs than CryEngine 1.

/GameStar/dev: The step from 32 to 64 bit was technically surely easier than going from single to multithreading.

Cevat Yerli: Unfortunately there is no step. We cannot really take the step, we have to support both.

/GameStar/dev: Are there performance issues with the multi-threaded CryEngine 2 running on single core pc's?

Cevat Yerli: The code can run sequentially. You're losing a bit of efficiency, but what you are gaining with optimization is higher. SO the price of sustaining a loss of the frame rate when running on a single-thread pc is so small, that you can easily get it back from that. Most of the PC games are not optimized anyway, Far Cry isn't either.

/GameStar/dev: With consoles, developers are getting astounding performance out of average hardware, because they have to. If this was the case with pc's you'd probably only need a Geoforce4 TI for running Doom 3.

Cevat Yerli: My point exactly. The evolution of hardware is running at such a fast rate, that you don't get to work with it for long. It's the same with cpu's, you have to take your time to optimize. The biggest problem with that are the cache misses. Also, you should avoid a global memory between the individual threads. Simply put: if we are reaching into the same pot, the pot must not change. If I am reaching for an element before you, you are not getting it anymore - or not the one that you expected at the very least. To bypass this you ideally have to change something in one step, pass the result on to the open memory and release it for other cpu's (unlocking).

/GameStar/dev: How to you keep the physics consistent with 6 threads.

Cevat Yerli: You could solve that not only technically but also creatively. You have to go new ways: How can we, and that's a main thing, how can we scale our game from 1 to 8 threads qualitatively. So that the game-play stays the same, but the game is either looking better or I can play it better. On PC it will only be cosmetically changes, because everyone has the power, but then there are big differences in game play. On consoles you can get better game play out of optimizing. That's why you have to test to scales as a multi-platform developer: FX and game play. On a PC you often only optimize FX (higher resolution etc.). We want to scale both FX and game play though, for example from the intensity of AI and shaders.

/GameStar/dev: How does porting work from x86 to X360?

Cevat Yerli: In general the architecture is different of course, but they are quite a bit more similar then Xbox360 and PS3. The cpu's of PC, 360 and PS3 have only one similarity - multi-threading. As a generic cpu the Xbox 360 processor is the most powerful one, if you're taking the 7 Spu's of the PS3 into account things change. Before we had the PS3 devkits we thought PS3 and Xbox 360 were closer in design than PC and console. That's not the case though *laughs*

/GameStar/dev: So you are optimizing your engine for the cell spu's?

Cevat Yerli: Sure. We have to, because we want to utilize PS3's power in full. Accordingly the PS3 will get it's own engine architecture, kind of a sub-architecture of CryEngine 2.

/GameStar/dev: You outsourced the Far Cry Instincts port. Now you have to port yourselves?

Cevat Yerli: Umh ...

/GameStar/dev: ... the graphics interfaces are requiring an extra effort?

Cevat Yerli: Yeah, because of OpenGL ES for the PS3 we have to recode our whole rendering. If you look at it closely, CryEngine 2 will have 2 solutions for each system in total. If a developer abstracts that, the technology is optimized very specifically. Otherwise you cannot utilize the whole power. Alternatively you can abstract it in a way that it is not running on all system, then the strongest platform is losing out the most ...


the most interesting point..............*****************
How does porting work from x86 to X360?

Cevat Yerli: In general the architecture is different of course, but they are quite a bit more similar then Xbox360 and PS3. The cpu's of PC, 360 and PS3 have only one similarity - multi-threading. As a generic cpu the Xbox 360 processor is the most powerful one, if you're taking the 7 Spu's of the PS3 into account things change. Before we had the PS3 devkits we thought PS3 and Xbox 360 were closer in design than PC and console. That's not the case though *laughs*

/GameStar/dev: So you are optimizing your engine for the cell spu's?

Cevat Yerli: Sure. We have to, because we want to utilize PS3's power in full. Accordingly the PS3 will get it's own engine architecture, kind of a sub-architecture of CryEngine 2.

http://www.gamestar.de/dev/pdfs/crytek.pdf

i am gonna post CLIMAX interview as well ...i posted it in gamespot forums under the ps3 section ...u could check yourself...but again i would post the interview soon...since the forum is down now for maintenance

Perhaps in the end once you pass the nationalist bit it's all down to appeal and x factor.

I think it's easier for japanese product to appeal to the rest of the world because japan doesn't flood culture to every corner of the globe in the same kind of way america does or has done in the past. (this might be changing now mind)

Sure, anime, manga and games are out there now but they are very exotic in nature with weird, quirky foreign content and jokes etc. This is something America can't really match even though they are a large country full of weird stuff. If you've ever seen Takeshi's Castle or Endurance you'll see why the japanese are clearly bonkers but go about it with such great sense of weird humour.

Myself and many others will look at 360 and think what games can I identify with 360. The only game that has convinced me to bag a 360 is Dead Rising and that is from Capcom. Capcom are japanese so I have a good idea of the quality of game I'm gonna get. Many of my games will be japanese for 360.

Halo 2/3 is sweet but I need more than that and if I get some different culture as a result of getting the right game then that's a sweeter.

As for Japan and its homeless people, they do exist but are most likely well hidden amongst the urban sprawl, but they are there, I saw some of them on tv around the time the recession binned plenty of salarymen who thought they had a job for life. There's no such thing as a job for life anymore so many will have to swallow some pride and count there blessings, or they might end up living out of a cardboard box.

Currently japan are lucky that they don't have all the lark of developers shutting down as bad as we do in the west (and if they are we hear little of it). However things can always change in this industry so I can understand them wanting to keep the market lead, be it via Sony or Nintendo.

I still think MS might sway some japanese to 360 but overall they'll have the same success as before, if not a little better.

Yes, and I can't bloody stand it. What is it with people? Give them anonymity and a mic and they turn into massive f**king arseholes. I played CS:Source the other day and I had forgotten that the typical stereotype of CS players was actually true. I thought it was a joke and seeing as I hadn't played the game for a while I had kind of forgotten. Some people are just arseholes, but it seems that in most online games, everyone is. I like Live, but only if I'm playing with some friends, everyone else are just irritating as hell.



I think that this guy needs help. Seriously. Or is it a joke?



I don't tend to look at any particularly nationality for my games, although taking a quick look through my collection, most of them are Japanese I think. Not all, but quite a large share. And that's just by chance.

For me, the big draw of 360 is games like Condemned and Prey, games that are changing the way games are played and doing it with some things never done before in realtime. The titles coming out of Japan look pretty neat, but I am still a major fan of games like Fable, Perfect Dark et al - and not out of some xenophobic will to up the profile of these home-grown games, but because genuinely I prefer them.

The issue of power comparison is very funny; many companies who are working both sides say the gap is insignificant, and naturally companies loyal to one say theirs is better. From what I can glean from various places, the lack of discernable gap is due to the graphics; by the time the PS3 launches at the Q3 stage of next year, Nvidia will have a graphics card of comparible quality out, and apparently the new SLI boards when twinned give about the same performance. The ATI board in the 360, like the Flipper in the Gamecube, is way ahead of its time; ATI reckon it will take at least 2-3 years to make it to PC. Not only that, but the ATI chip is an integral part; like the Cube chip, it is very much a part of the system, whereas the Nvidia chip runs alongside CELL. I find it odd Sony have taken this approach, and many are saying it may be the chink in its armour. I guess we will see when both are playable; til then, we're all just feeding rumours.

The fact there's still frothing over SPOnG's terming of Japan as xenophobic amuses me. Americans love US games - US game comapnies make what they want, that's why. Same for Japan, but Japan has the hardware too, and always has. Now these outsider Americans come with their "laughable" machines... and then people get pissy about them being branded xenophobic.

i am an american
i am not a bastard... and at no point will you ever find me commeneding the actions of my government... i am disgusted on a daily basis by teh actions of the "leaders" of my home. they are a bunch of homophoibic classist slime.

that said... i never said other wise... infact a few posts ago a mentioned how silly i thought nationalism was... you are just trying to switch topics whenever you are proven wrong... you acuse me of lying aboutthere being homeless in japan and when i prove that iw as there and that you are wrong you asault the homeless population in my country a statistic i was not defending. your the worst kind of person, runnign aroudn with strong ideals and weak ideas... no one should feel so strongly about somethign they dont know about... else you become a zealot and blow yourself up in a subway... and im still waiting on that apology for calling me a liar...

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all developers have said that the ps3 is 2x/4x more powerful than x360....i justed posted ibm's artcle as well as spyrtek's interview....218 gflops compared to 37-45 gflops....no company except MS ever said that x360 has the same power as ps3...and note IBM made x360's cpu as well....yes we would have RSX being overtaken by pc video cards...but it would take years for intel and amd to reach the 200+ gflops margin...they might never reach there at all....famitsu magazine has said that sony plans to relase a 100 ghz cell in 4/5 years time during the launch of ps4....they have plans to bring a 100 spe cell into existence....it is not impossible considering the power of the cell which is 10/15 times more power than xenos/anything available in the market

the cell alone is more powerful than the gpu and cpu of x360...and ofcourse RSX is superior to r500...see the leaked out specs on hardshell..and also ps3 uses yDRAM rather than eDRAM..rsx has texture bandwidth and filtering rate of 47.8 and 13.0 compared to 22 and 8.0 for r500.....r500 is a cheaply made product and the unified thing is irrelevant...every thing looks garbage due to the power of the cell...which has power to act as a gpu as well

da ngage is better...it 'as 30000 terrflops of datah and it is amasin...u is idiot!

FINALY! someone who knows what they are talkign about :)


________

Yep,that's why it's such a great country i'd like to visit someday if i get a chance...and maybe stay in the UK.I can imagine big Sony(PS3?) adverts all over Tokyo(Svend,LUPOS can you verify).Would really like to know how MS has prepared for the launch cos they got to keep their eyes turnin to keep the interest up.But X360's small pricetag might give gamers there a perception of inferiority.

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2x/4x more powerful, ha, whatever man.Do you really think that matters when devs are struggling to stay operational!? If PS3 had 2x/4x lower production costs it would have been so much better as creating a game such as K3 is attainable, but who can afford it?Even Sony restructured its own studios as a result of higher production costs.

Graphics department is mature now and Nintendo is the only smart enough seeing controls as a priority.

my best possibel description of tokyo relies on new york for refference but its like... in NYC there is time square... its big... covered in TV screena d humongus billboards and is shoulder to shoulder people... all of tokyo is liek that... almost... every major train stop you get off at... bill board up the entire sides of buildings... enourmous screens all over.... i didnt know an over abundance of sony bill boards.... infact a great percenatg where probably asahi and other beverage co's... i think the countrys economy is one thrird electroncs, one third toys and one third beverages. i figure sony doesnt have "thath many" adds up simply because they dopnt need to... the game stoeres had little bitty signs that where just liek print outs of a pic of a 360 and the preorder packages... no large sections, no big signs, and no one stanidng aroudn looking at it or seeming all that interested unfortunatley.

i do think MS will do better this generation that last... but i certainly dont think they will break sony and nintenod... thankfully for them all they need is mild support there and to continue and increase there strong support else where and they coudl be in good shape... a great many of those 90million ps2 where sold in the states and euope where there is no lack of interest in the 360.

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Nasim007 I have something for you explain why when i ask my 2yr old niece which is more powerfull the xbox 360, nintendo revolution, or the PS3, she says the revo is and she realy knows how to back up her opinion with logic and her astounding ability to tell the difference between fact and opinion.

oh and all your answers must be submited with atleast one complete thought achieved throughout the whole thing.