Sony Lies: SIXASIS Shame

i wonder if there will be another lawsuit when nintendo gets to look inside this pile of gash controller, and then Sony remove the tilt-sensor due to 'defending the customer from spiralling costs' once again

No there wont as the PS3 motion sensing and Wii one work completely differently. The PS3 one is based on sensing the movement of the joy pad from within the joy pad. Where the Wii method need a sensor bar o your TV to monitor the joypads position in 3D space.

I was under the impression the the Wii operated both ways, with input from within the controller as well as the controller comunicating with the bar. Hence a game where it is held pointing twords the screen allows for aiming with it, but a game like excitetruck uses it the same way as the sixasssucks by just measuring till and change in position as the end isnt poitned at th ebar.
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This is the closest to the truth Sony has come all year long. Adding rumble to the controller would be expensive... but not for the consumer. It would be expensive for Sony.

They know they have to settle the rumble lawsuit in order to proceed. That's the expense they are trying to avoid.

me too

omfg!! sony you really are a**eholes! what annoys me the most about this is, say there was no immersion solution and rumble affected it full stop. how about... just throwing it out here... you turn the f**king rumble feature OFF when you need to be using the motion sensor, and on when you dont! im pritty sure rumble doesnt need to be on 24/7. theres a whole expense of about 0.0001p to just do that. oh dear.

The nunchuck and the wiimote have patented accelerometers, these measure the tilt and movement. The sensor bar is for the screen interactions (ie pointing) and 3d placement in the room this only occurs with the wiimote.

is there no chance (at this stage, when no ones had a chance to look inside both) that there could be an infringement?

sounds like there is to me, it must be very similar technology

obviously a small chance because sony will have perused nintendo's patents first

but imagine the glorious finding that they hadnt checked the patents, and had to pay nintendo for every ps3 controller sold or lose the feature from the controller entirely!

oh lordy happy days

Yeah, but, to be honest, all it is is whether the controller vibrates or not - which isn't quite as important as the software, in my opinion, so it's not that big a deal.

No one complained about whether the SNES or Megadrive - or even the Dreamcast - controller vibrated. Just because the technology exists doesn't mean it's essential - even the DS and PSP don't vibrate - then again, Sony could release new controllers later on that do.

What I hate, I suppose, is the fact that consumers think they know best - they know a lot about previous technology, but not much about creating games - you may as well give Sony a chance - but a the end of the day, money is what will decide what is good or bad (which is probably a bad way of deciding, but it's tough).

Hardly customers do know best, thats why the dreamcast, n64 and gamecube failed (at least in terms of sales). If Sony don't play there cards right ie reduce the overall price of there next gen hardware they will fail. Sony is closing a lot of doors at the moment first with the blu ray not being able to play movies without the bluray remote and now the lack of vibrate (been an internet rumor for a long while now). Its all stuff that came as standard with the progression from ps to ps2 why remove it now particuarly with such a massive following from consumers and more importantly developers. (pretty much every game released since the ps2 conception used the vibrate function)
Sony has made some really bad choices within the last couple of years just look at the truly rubbish psp. The analog stick is placed in entirly the wrong place now this, maybe its time for sony to go back to what there good at; home entertainment. Sorry for being scathing but seriously i listened to all the bullcrap that came out before ps2 launched (the reason in my opinon for ther death of the DC), now sony don't even have that. The lack of true 1080p games, (at least for a long time after launch), the high price, yadda yadda. Every one on the internet is slagging the ps3 off and sony is giving more and more reason. I want sony to prove me wrong and release a fantasic console. Even though i didn't like the ps2 it brought affordable dvd players to the home, the same could happen for bluray but only if sony get it right. They need to start showing people the future rather than back stepping.

Well, Sony is likely not going to infringe on any patents. The similarties between the sixaxis and Kirky Tilt n Tumble are obvious. I'm sure if there are encroachments by the PS3 controller, Nintendo will rape them in the rear.

No one complained about whether the SNES or Megadrive - or even the Dreamcast - controller vibrated. Just because the technology exists doesn't mean it's essential - even the DS and PSP don't vibrate - then again, Sony could release new controllers later on that do.

No one complained about the snes or megadrive because the technology was not out at that time.
the dreamcast / n64 and even the ds have a add on that make so that they vibrate. the reason that psp dose not have vibration on it is the fact that the console has problems with battery life and look at the games that have come out on the home console in the past 7 years about 95% use vibration in the pads
Microsoft use it in the 360 coz they could afford to pay Immersion Corporation for the right to use there technology

Microsoft have rumble still, as they own a large percentage of Immersion.

It's just Sony trying to save face. They have a very Japanese sense of honour, and the lawsuit shamed them. They will not go to their enemy to ask for their help; they would rather not have the feature.

And it'd be MS who would sue over a possible patent on the tilt technology, as it uses the same system as the (utterly pap) Sidewinder tilt pad.

This is, I think, the crux of this whole situation.

Let's look at what happened.

Sony produces some rumble technology that apparently infringes on Immersion's patents. This does not mean that they copied Immersion's technology, just that the two systems work in a similar enough way to say one infringes on the other.

Immersion sues Sony and hilarity ensues. Sony refuses to settle.

Sony refuses to license the Immersion technology for the PS3 controller and so removes rumble all together. "Rumble is so last gen!"

Immersion, upset at this loss of potential revenue, states that it could make rumble and motion sensing work together and offers to help Sony achieve it. This is without seeing how Sony's motion sensing technology works.

Sony changes its tune and says that it would be expensive to correct for the rumble. Being a hardware firm, they were most likely looking at a purely hardware solution and I have no doubt this would be expensive.

Immersion, again, tells the world that it can help Sony, and cheaply too! Again this is without knowing squat about how Sony's motion sensing technology works. What they seem to propose is some sort of software solution.

That's what has been said and what has happened. Please correct me if I have missed anything out or got the wrong end of the stick.

What we need to remember here are a few facts;

1) Immersion is pissed off at Sony for infringing its patents.
2) Immersion is pissed off at Sony for not licensing its technology for the PS3.
3) Microsoft owns a large percentage of Immersion.
4) Immersion has been accused of patent trolling in the past and living off its IP rather than producing useful products.

Right there are the facts, now what do you lot make of them all?

I think that Sony and Immersion are being quite childish. Immersion in its press releases about how it can help Sony and Sony by not just saying exactly what the issue is. I also think that there may be a little of Microsoft pushing Immersion to make those statements.

I also think that the lack of rumble in PS3 will not affect sales one little bit. Anybody who say they won't buy a PS3 solely because of the lack of rumble would probably not have bought one in the first place.

Wii's controller is more advanced. It senses tilt (all axis), movement and accelleration from within, while the sensor bar keeps track of the exact position in 3D space. Wii will know the exact position of the controller (relative to the sensor bar) while booting up, even if it' s sitting on your couch.

In short, it's a full 3D controller, while PS3 is just a motionsensing controller, far less accurate since it never keeps track of coordinates in true space. For basic games it will work just as good though, since it senses tilt, movement (though obviously not that accurate) and accelleration.

As to "the real reason" Sony left out rumble... did anyone really think it was a technical issue? Wii's controller has rumble! Plus that 's one-handed and more sensitive and smaller. Ironic that they leave out rumble due to cost, yet have no trouble asking 600 bucks for a device, that could have cost 400 and be more performant, if they made a decent -made for a gameconsole- CPU and ditched bluray. Oh well.

From what I have read, the Wii remote is almost exactly like a Sixaxis (god that's hard to type) with the addition of a "light gun" like sensor that works with the sensor bar.

The sensor bar has three LEDs in it that give the remote some clues as to where it is in relation to the bar, if set up correctly this means the remote "knows" where the TV is and can be used for accurate pointing.

I'd be careful of saying it knows where it is when it's on your couch. From what I have read, the remote will need to be pointing at the sensor bar to get that positional info. It's not a wireless mesh that the remote senses, it's just a few LEDs.

All previews of Metroid Prime 3 say otherwise. The remote isn't used as a pointer in MP3, yet there is an "invisible" 3D box that keeps track of the position of the (main) controller. IGN stated this as early as E3, that once you move outside of this 3D box, control is lost. You also don't have to point it AT the TV since you can shoot up or down, and point away left or right from the bar as long as you stay inside "the box".

Which doesn't mean Wii CAN'T be used as a pointer (demonstrated by the Wii Play shooting minigame), where it actually IS used as a pointer. Why would Wii even need a sensor bar if only for this "lightgun" style? The technology has been available since duckhunt, and sure to be cheaper -and possibly more accurate- WITHOUT the bar.

Because traditional light gun technology relies on the scanning beam of a CRT to determine the position the gun is pointing. The Wii uses the sensor bar as a backup to the motion sensors for more accuracy. It also means you can use it with plasma, LCD and projector displays, which are becoming more and more popular.

Perhaps I mislead by my use of the term "light gun", I didn't mean to. I just meant the Wii remote used an optical sensor tuned in to the frequencies emitted by the sensor bar LEDs, as opposed to an RF solution.

Fair enough.

Though i'm pretty sure the coordinates of the controller are being read by the sensor bar as well. Else the IGN previews just don't make any sense.

not unheard of