JFK shooting game – A collection of hysteria

Feedback from our world-endangering cousins across the pond

Posted by Staff
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Left a bit...
Funny old place, America. SPOnG spends quite a lot of time over there and for some reason, we only tend to meet nice American people. And yet most of them would seem to be crazed right-wing reactionary lunatics.

And it’s quite funny what winds them up. You’d think that starving half the planet to death and destabilising much of the world in pursuit of making its richest citizens richer would cause a certain amount of outcry but apparently not, that’s all fine.

What Americans really seem to hate is a computer game in which you try and blow mafia-linked womaniser JFK’s head off, playing as CIA stooge Lee Harvey Oswald.

Available right here from Traffic Games, you are invited to take part in a virtual assassination of JFK, with those making the mark eligible for a prize of up to $100,000.

For reference, John F Kennedy was assassinated in 1963 amid the Vietnam War, an historic event deemed acceptable for recreation, and less than 20 years after the US let off the only atomic weapon ever aimed at people, with 140,000 civilian deaths recorded.

Of course, Traffic Games’ defence that is has created something educational to be enjoyed by the masses as part of an interactive documentary is as cynical a claim as it is disingenuous. But some of the feedback for elements of the US press has been astounding.

The Indystar newspaper advises reader to “…grit your teeth and prepare to take offence -- at the very least. Created by Traffic Games, a Glasgow, Scotland, tech firm, "JFK Reloaded" can be downloaded off the Internet for $9.99 -- thus making it probably more consumer-accessible than games from traditional outlets.”

You see, it’s everywhere!

“Players fire three shots at the motorcade of President John F. Kennedy in Dallas, from the perspective of Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas School Book Depository. They score if their shots match the official version of events as reported by the Warren Commission. They lose if, say, they accidentally hit first lady Jacqueline Kennedy. "Blood effects" visuals are optional. By pressing a button, players can witness the effect of the bullet hitting the president's skull or body. Even the timing is ugly -- it was released Monday, the 41st anniversary of the assassination.”

Perhaps the right-wing in America is somewhat sensitive on the subject of assassination right now. SPOnG can’t understand why…

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Comments

Showing the 20 most recent comments. Read all 51.
ohms 24 Nov 2004 17:28
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Rod Todd wrote:

rlw1951 wrote:
I do wonder though, how you have become such a self-hating american.


I don't hate myself,. I hate what my couintry has become. And how its people - good people - have been deceived by avaricse na dmedia control to confuse our activities, which are all about making rich peple richer, with the actions of a noble or peace-loving country.


hear, hear

blind patriotism is something that the US could really do without, so many Americans seem to think that when we attack the actions of it's governments, past and present, we are attacking them personally, on no other nation on earth does this apply (apart from Israel, where if you attack their policies you're an anti-semite).
If I critisise Blair or a previous british prime minister, no one's going to call me a self hating Brit, it's absurd.

America !! You are not your government !!

rlw1951 24 Nov 2004 17:35
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I have enjoyed the lively debate about current events and I appreciate the respectful and intelligent discourse that has transpired. Some very smart folks online. Except you LUPOS. Jeez, go back to school! Get an education! Anyway, have a wonderful holiday season. And like you all, I hope for a peaceful and loving world. Good-bye. RLW1951
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DoctorDee 24 Nov 2004 17:55
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rlw1951 wrote:
Anyway, have a wonderful holiday season. And like you all, I hope for a peaceful and loving world.


Amen to that!
DoctorDee 24 Nov 2004 18:30
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LUPOS wrote:
A) The taliban did 9/11.

No they didn't. Al Qaeda "did" 11/9

LUPOS wrote:
b) 3/4 of the terrorists involved with 9/11 are from sudi arabia

More than 3/4 of those actively involved were from Saudi Arabia.

LUPOS wrote:
c)osama bin laden the leader of the taliban is from saudi arabia

Osama Bin Laden, who is from Saudi Arabia but was expellled from there in 1991, is NOT the leader of the Taliban.

Mohammad Omar is the leader of the Taliban.

From here on in, however. I'm kinda with you.
mrFloppy 24 Nov 2004 19:13
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rlw1951 wrote:
I have enjoyed the lively debate about current events and I appreciate the respectful and intelligent discourse that has transpired. Some very smart folks online. Except you LUPOS. Jeez, go back to school! Get an education! Anyway, have a wonderful holiday season. And like you all, I hope for a peaceful and loving world. Good-bye. RLW1951


to bring up an old quote:
I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

but please believe us when we say that the world looks different when you take off the patriotic coloured glasses.


oooh... and bring on the lady diana game. Maybe an even better (and longer lived game) would be one that allows you to participate in all the botched assasinations throughout history: Hitler, Suharto, Reagan, John Paul II etc etc etc.... the list goes on, the game would be huge.....

"the moment you wake up and realise that when you jump ship, you can either swim for shore or drown" -- propagandhi
rlw1951 24 Nov 2004 19:35
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Not a question of patriotism but of pragmatism ...and survival
config 24 Nov 2004 19:39
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DoctorDee wrote:
LUPOS wrote:
A) The taliban did 9/11.

No they didn't. Al Qaeda "did" 11/9

Allegedly.

:)

TheEliteSamurai 24 Nov 2004 19:44
39/51
Kudos to all those who have seen the light and know the truth, for your arguments are excellent and expose the truth.
The fact is America does as was said have a blind patriotism and this is because Americans are lied to daily, America is a scaremonger society, its so that the population can be controlled through terror, which in effect makes America a thorough terrorist nation, TV Networks are told by the government what they can and cant say, they have policies on changing facts and editing the news.
America is controlled through fear using miscommunication, a massive example of this being the demonisation of black people. More black people are exposed for their crimes in the media then white people. *Note im a white British male and have seen this with my own eyes, i have been to many major US cities and its clear whats going on, but Americans can't see it because they've grown up with it. In Britain i watch British, American, Australian and french news channels, the reports made by the British, French and Aussie stations are exactly the same factually and unbias in their delivery However all the American stations deliver the news in a subtle yet no doubt bias way, they change facts and present it in such a way that there is no doubt that the American stations have all changed and warped the news so that it contributes to the scaremongeringing culture in America. Now this heavily applies to the war in Irag, all US stations change reports, edit everything in a bias way and lead the public into beliveing that America is a God sent nation that is out on a selfless crusade for the good of the world to crush the evil evil terrorists out for western blood.

September 11th changed everything. yes it did. It opened America's eyes and made them realise that it wasn't an untouchable fortress and that their actions dont go unnoticed.

America's success relies on the oppression of other nations, America's downfall will be when it has run out of nations to oppress. India is useless to America now because it is pulling its self out of the ruins of 3rd world life, slowly but surley, the more jobs and economically stable a 3rd world nation becomes the more useless it is to the US. I have cousins living in Iran, they have done so for 14 years and ive been there many times. My Uncle once worked in a factory where they constructed electronics of some kind (i cant remember what products they were) In these factories they stamp everything as Manufactured in America or American Made, all the paperwork is done so that it appears to have been manufactured somewhere in the American Midwest, this is a small example of America's lies and the constant exploitations of financially weaker nations.
rlw1951 24 Nov 2004 19:53
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All I can say to this rant is WOW! I just hope you are not a teacher or have some position of authority where you can spread this BS. Shockingly misinformed, biased and really scary stuff you write. Yikes!!!
Joji 24 Nov 2004 21:50
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Well don't you just love a historic, political, gaming hot potato? Really have to say this debate has been great stuff to read. keep it burning, Ron Todd and Config making so good points that our american friend was not understanding at al, more the fool him.

I do think this JFK game is in poor taste but also are Conflict Desert Storm (especially when people are dying in the middle east now), Manhunt, Deer Hunter etc. I could see a lot of anti americans downloading it though.

On the point of my views on America, I'd have to agree that American has lost it's way, and is responsible for so much grief in the world, but like someone else might have said, terrorists don't really hate America as a country or it's people, they hate the American government that lead them.

Like many I don't hate America, majority of it's people are nice and all. I even have some family who live there.

I think the problems for America began when WW1 broke out and America did not join in to support the allies, it took Germany to push them in reluctantly into joining. Now for a nation that prides itself on freedom, this wasn't a good way to go to convince other nations that you love and stand up for freedom and liberty, in this case the american government sat on it arse for ages, taking in cash buy supplying food and weapons, but none of their soldier man power. This war showed them they could get rich, off of selling arms to others nations on a large scale, something they love to do still today.

They then repeated the same thing ironicly, during WWII. Sat on their arses while their rebuilt economy got good money for weapons and food, from the allied countries. Again it took the japanese this time to get them to join the war. It should not have taken Pearl Habour in order for them to support the rest of the free world, let alone drop not one nuke, but two of the beggars on Japan. Do these actions sound like the actions of someone that loves freedom so much? And when they did turn up in Europe, they HELPED end the war, they did not finish it themselves, it was a joint effort. Get sick and tired of americans singing that bull that they saved everyones arses in the war. Talk about blowing your trumpet too much.

Very true, if there was no eastern front that the brave russians had to fight for, the Nazi's would have walked all over the rest of europe, with America the next stop. The russians held out against incredible odds. The Nazi's would have loved to have had only the western front to fight.

On current events I feel that the American government could do more to help other nations, but the main problem is the way they do or don't go about it. A lot of small countries out there could do with their help, but it seems the U.S always want something or a lot more in return, even when a poor country has virtually nothing to give back. This mentality doesn't earn them much friends. The U.S have been interfering in the likes of many nations for ages.

I believe that the British government follow America blindly into almost everything because they are our "cousins and close comrades". Talk about butt kissing with chapped lips. On top of that our government have short memories. It seems okay for America to say no to everyone else, but when the hell have we ever said no and refused them anything? Hardly ever, and now Iraq is burning our lips for kissing their arse too much. So much for our damn leader, don't know who is worse, Blair or Bush. Sick of both of em.

I think the most recent three examples of America's that no one mentions are, back in the 1984, when the British government asked for help with the Falklands incident, the americans refused to help and it turned into a war, partly due to the time it took our forces to reach the islands. America could have helped and in doing so possibly eased some pains, but they chose not to help us and we went in alone to sort our problems. Good thing we can do things on our own sometimes.

On another note in 1983, the U.S went into Grenada (not sure if illegal, ((I was only 5 then)), but it wouldn't surprise me) supposedly to protect U.S (most likely medical) students, but really wanted to remove a possible Cuban sympathising leader from his power post. It didn't matter that the guy who was the previously Grenadian leader in power, was rigging the elections so he would stay in power, the U.S just wanted any Cuban influences, to stop so close to them and flex their muscles. More communist paranoia driving things again, no doubt.

The second point is that of the IRA, a terrorist organisation that the U.S helped fund, so basicly their dollars were killing our civilians, and even though this went on for several years, the whole biz with the IRA is now a past thought there is still british blood on american hands. Very little is ever said about this though. Adding more fuel to the fire is our government and the U.S government, saying "we don't negotiate with terrorists", but hello. Isn't that just what happened between the British government and the IRA a few years back? So that means we all have double standards then, surely?

Despite the U.S greedy ambitions, it's hard to forget their many mistakes, when they start grief and cause death to so many people. Remember it was also the U.S who did not sign up for the "cut carbon emmisions" paper at the Kyoto or G8 summit (which ever it was). Obviously this is one of their most arrogant and stupid mistakes. Especially in America, where they get hurricanes, tornadoes and other extreme weather. Now I wonder why they never signed up? I believe it's because Enron helped fund Bush's campaign and now need payback. This will come in the form of the black gold from middle eastern nations, which will be sold in station pumps, most of it goes to americans on their gas guzzling SUV holidays to Miami Beach etc, which then affects our summer. Bush never mentions how low U.S extracted oil currently is at (not that I've heard anyway, could be wrong though).

Sorting out the biz in Israel/Palestine would help them a lot. Stop supporting Israel blindly, because it's not helping either party. I dunno, perhaps build an artificial island by reclaiming land from the sea, and maybe also using land from the promised land. This way the land is divided between both Israel/Palestine and their would be less arguement, I'm sure that's the kind of thing King Solomon would have done.

It's good to make mistakes (every nation does), so long as you learn not to repeat them, and unforunately for the good american people out there their government still seem to be making them in spades, but just with different wheels on instead every few years.

I also think americans need to try leave their country now and then and broaden their horizons more (I know many do, but more than that). Staying in one small town, listening and not questioning any information via the media, is clearly a one way ticket to a patriotic-american hates ville, of most things and people, that are not pure or american, whatever those definitions maybe.

Fighting a war on terror is all okay, but I bet there will still be problems in Iraq for a long time, if the elections go well, and americans and brits decides to pull out, like they were supposed to ages ago. Just what do you do with your life, if there is no one to fight or kill, and that's all you have ever known in your life? Iraq and Afghanistan can only learn these once we all leave, perhaps.

That's my pennys worth anyway.
rlw1951 24 Nov 2004 22:34
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Nicely composed letter Joji. And I am listening-I just disagree. That does not make me the fool. We have totally different perspectives on the world and history. Your anecdotal examples of american shortcomings could easily be countered with examples of your country or any other country for that matter. You talk about aide being dispensed around the world In fact, the combined humanitarian assistance in dollars of all the nations of the world does not equal that given by the U.S. How about 15 billion dollars for Aids assistance in Africa for a starter. How about millions of tons of american grain being shipped around the world to feed the hungry. What other country gives so much and gets kicked in the teeth while doing it? I could give example after example but I am sure it would fall on deaf ears. I don't believe America has lost it's way at all. We are the strongest nation in the history of the planet and we are leading. You may castigate America for not helping everyone, but you guys can pitch in too. Australia should have done something about East Timor. The UK and France should have done something about Ruwanda ( you guys colonized the continent!) Why don't you guys carry the ball for a while. Take care.
Jack Dolcette 25 Nov 2004 02:06
43/51

Yes, the debate here is good. It is a great thing to see free people speaking their mind, whatever their opinions. Too bad some of us don't see it is freedom which is allowing it. Freedom which ensures you can say just about anything you want here, and even produce games as reprehensible and vile as JFK Reloaded, and not be the least bit concerned there'll be a pounding knock at the door at 5:00 a.m. by someone demanding your attention downtown.

As far as Elite's uncle making "Made in America" parts in Iran, that's called fraud. The company may be Iranian owned, or run by an American, but it is still illegal.

There are a few other points raised which could use some straightening out....

Many seem to be pathologically anti-Bush and anti-Blair, happily, but angrily, blaming them for the world's dislike of America today.

They seemed to have forgotten that while the world "accepted" the Clinton administration and there was love and goodwill in the hearts of Europeans towars Americans then, bin Laden had already launched several bloody and murderous attacks against the west and had already put the final touches on the plans to carry out the 9/11 (or 11/9) attacks then. Bush had only been in office a few months by the time 9/11 took place. He sure the heck didn't have anything to do with what had taken place before he was elected. Where is your anger at Clinton for whatever his administration did which "led" to the attacks and all the hatred for America which is so evident today???

And what would you expect any leader of any nation to do after such a monstrous attack?? Sit on their "arses" and do nothing? Honestly, some of the "opinions" here are wildly unforgiving and incredibly forgetful.

So there seems to be a major point happily overlooked. No, America did NOT win WWII single-handed. However, much of the world was so emasculated after that war that one could easily say - and be right about it - that it was America's presence on this planet which kept the Soviet Union from rolling tanks all the way to Paris. And maybe even to London. ONLY the United States and its nuclear weapons prevented that. If you believe otherwise, you are as naive as the appeasers which allowed WWII to start in the first place. The Soviets were afraid of NO ONE after WWII, except the U.S. And the U.S. stuck it out with Europe during the darkest of times, going so far as to brazenly fly supplies into Berlin directly over Soviet anti-aircraft guns to make sure they (the Russians) knew America would not abandon their friends, friends which now seem to think the U.S. deserves all the hate they can take. They flew those supplies in around the clock, in almost any weather, for months and months. More than a few American aircrews were lost in the effort. Could you imagine the French being as generous, or as brave??? Hah!

And yes, every nation makes mistakes. Some of America's worst mistakes took place when the "wonderful and world-friendly Democrats" were in power (Vietnam, Bay of Pigs) and some when Republicans were in power (the Kurdish uprising), and people and nations learn from their mistakes.

It is also funny how people seem to forget the first Bush president pulled out of Iraq as soon as he (and the coalition) kicked Saddam out of Kuwait, and he was frequently lambasted for leaving Saddam in power. However, as he did leave a few bases on Saudi soil, this is some sort of strange justification for killing thousands of innocent civilians on 9/11!??? Crazy!!

Joji laments so much "blood on American hands." Where is your concern for the millions liquidated by the Soviets AFTER WWII? Where is your concern for the thousands of Cossacks murdered by the Soviets immediately after being handed over to them by the British right after the war ended? From what I have been able to learn, British forces could hear the mass shootings take place, but still kept on handing over the Cossacks; men, women and children, as they begged and pleaded for their very lives, every last one of them. And every last ONE OF THEM was handed over and killed within yards of Bristish troops in whose hands they had placed their lives. Or I suppose this is all just "rumor."

And another thing Joji, the British received a lot more help than you seem to be aware of during the Falklands war. You have to keep in mind America IS the world in that all of its citizens ultimately came from some other county to begin with, or at the very least their ancestors did. Argentina is a friend of the U.S. as is England, though obviously without the close ties and history, but still friends. Even so, America provided the UK with up-to-the-minute recon photos, both satellite and SR-71 based, as well as electronic intelligence data almost as soon as the conflict began. America also "failed to inform" Argentina the bombs being dropped on British warships by Argentinian naval jets (sold to them many years prior by the U.S.) would not set their fuses if dropped at so low an altitude. America "sat on its hands" and watched bomb after bomb strike British warships and fail to detonate, while the Argentinians wondered what the heck was going wrong. America pretended it didn't know, even though it knew full well the fuses needed adjusting. Eventually the Argentines figured it out (they are hardly stupid people themselves, though maybe a bit too nationalistic sometimes), but not with U.S. help. Certainly dozens of British lives and many ships were saved thanks to American involvement (or, "non-involvement").

I remember Europeans protesting in the tens of thousands when Reagan pushed for and succeeded in placing Pershing II missiles on European soil. Interesting how the Soviet Union imploded in on itself trying to match the U.S. in defence spending as a result of Reagan's policies. Now, all of Europe is free from the threat of Soviet tanks as a result. Or sure, you could argue the Russians were headed there anyway, but the fact is it would have taken years longer, maybe even decades, before they would have reached such a point.

Where are the thanks for that??? Where is the admission the tactics of the Reagan administration ultimately proved highly successful, despite his probably-not-necessary grandstanding in Greneda.

It's also funny how quickly people forget just how imperialistic the UK was before WWII, and would have continued to remain so if at all possible after WWII. Some of you complain of (private) U.S. funding for the IRA. While I hated the IRA for their tactics, what is the UK even doing in Northern Ireland to begin with - being "imperialists" which you now so villify when it comes to American actions today??? The UK was just as manipulative, just as selfish, just as aggressive and just as greedy as America has ever been in its long history. It was the presence of Dutch, UK and French military and capitalistic forces in Indo-China, sucking raw material out of the entire region as fast as they could get their hands on them, which so fueled the fires of militaristic voices in the Japanese government to the point where war was inevitable. Where is your regret for Eurpoean greed now??

Joji complains the U.S. did not come to the aid of Europe soon enough in either world wars. How ridiculous!! Let me get this straight - America should keep its nose out of every one else's business but should have intervened as soon as UK and French diplomats underestimated the dangers and bungled their own situation??? Which is it you want??? And you are "sick and tired" of American's blowing their "trumpet" when they claim to have been of so much help, but that the Americans are hypocrites for not helping soon enough???

Don't forget your history Joji -

It was the extremely repressive - and super greedy - terms of the Versaille Treaty, largely authored by the triumphant UK and France - and NOT the US - which laid the foundations of National Socialism in Germany after WWI and the horrible nightmare which followed. It was also the insane mutual aid treaties which were entered into before WWI which allowed millions to perish all because of a misguided handful of Serbs with a couple of hanguns and a grenade that led to WWI.

The fact is, if one digs even just a little, EVERY country has a l-o-t to be sorry about; the British, the French, the Dutch, the Russians and the Americans. And many more.

Is is also a fact people tend to villify those at the top, be it the Americans on the world stage or the leader of a local labor union. It is just human nature. Now that AMERICA pushed the Soviet Union into oblivion (with the strong assistance of her allies and the foresighted leaders in those countries who saw the value of America's efforts), there is only one real super-power left, so every one with an ax to grind, everyone who hates their own personal lot in life, wants to "blame" the local big cheese for all their woes.

About three weeks ago, an unidentified "iman" in Saudi Arabia is reported to have declared it "permissible" for al Qaeda to use nuclear weapons against the Americans because of the "millions" of Muslims they have "killed." Let's see, the last time a "crusade" took place, it was led by --- uh --- Europeans!

I don't know who these "millions" are or where or when they were "killed," but I doubt that matters to bin Laden. Please fill me in if you know what the hell this crackpot is talking about.

But if bin Laden had one or more nukes on 9/11, do you think he would have "held them in reserve" and allowed the hijackings to go through, or do you think he would have set them off in one or more American cities? Do you really believe America deserves to have its cities nuked?? Are Americans so evil they should have their citizens burned to a cinder by the hundreds of thousands?

And... do you honestly and sincerely believe your city would never be a target of such an attack if it could be carried out, simply because it is not in America and Europeans are such peace-loving and kind people with absolutely nothing to be the least bit ashamed of in their centuries-long histories??

Give me a break! I've said it here before and I'll say it again; your ass is dead meat if bin Laden and his followers have anything to say about it. It was dead meat before we even heard the name "Bush" and it will remain dead-meat long after Bush is out of office and completely forgotten. The Islamic extremists will stop at nothing. Nothing. And no amount of ass kissing by anyone, to anyone, for any reason, will change their minds. They want only your death, my death, and the deaths of anyone not completely subject to their intense and brutal views of Islam. All this bickering takes away from that once very real and serious fact; that extremist Muslims (they are not really Muslims as Islam would never condone such madness), have been (l-o-n-g before "Bush"), are now and will remain rabidly anti-west. And anti-east. And anti -everything else. We either realize it sooner than later and do everything we can to stop them, or wake up one day and see your home town blasted into nothingness, along with your families and anything else remotely of value.

Let us celebrate whatever holidays our nations hold this time of year by being thankful we get to argue, and by praying our children will be able to continue the tradition for decades to come.

DoctorDee 25 Nov 2004 07:55
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Jack Dolcette wrote:

Yes, the debate here is good. It is a great thing to see free people speaking their mind, whatever their opinions. Too bad some of us don't see it is freedom which is allowing it.


Yes, but these same freedoms are now being eroded, in the United States and in the UK, in the name of national security.

And while, no I'm not saying that we are becoming like cold-war Russia, or pre-war Iraq... we are not like 70s America or UK any more either.

They seemed to have forgotten that while the world "accepted" the Clinton administration and there was love and goodwill in the hearts of Europeans towars Americans then, bin Laden had already launched several bloody and murderous attacks against the west and had already put the final touches on the plans to carry out the 9/11 (or 11/9)


Yes, but Clinton wasn't in business with the Bin Laden family. Clinton had stopped Unocal doing business with the Taliban. Clinton had signed up to the Kyoto accord. Clinton hadn't cut taxes to make the rich richer, and the poor poorer.

And it was the republicans, not the democrats, who forced the FBI to ignore warnings that "something funny" was happening at several US flight schools, and concentrate on trying to indite the president for getting his dick sucked.

And what would you expect any leader of any nation to do after such a monstrous attack?? Sit on their "arses" and do nothing?


Well, I wouldn't expect them to wage an illegal war on a country that had NOTHING to do with the attack. Invading Iraq has NOTHING to do with 11/9, or terrorism. It has to do with regime change and oil, and that is why we hate Bush.

Clinton was commited to cutting your obscenely wasteful use of resources. This would be a challenge to commerce. Bush will do nothing to challenge commerce, and so he is commited to a path of wastefullness. This is why people hate him.

Honestly, some of the "opinions" here are wildly unforgiving and incredibly forgetful.


And some of them consider a bigger picture than just how big your personal tax cuts have been this last five years, Jack.

However, much of the world was so emasculated after that war that one could easily say - and be right about it - that it was America's presence on this planet which kept the Soviet Union from rolling tanks all the way to Paris.


This is the same "rule by fear" strategy that is being put into play now. Before their were "Reds in our beds" not there are "Terrorists everywhere". Thing is the entire world has lived with terrorism for years. America didn't care,or even notice particularly. Only when there was a terrible terrorist incident on your own shores did you sit up and take notice. But the response has been entirely irrational, and politically motivated. No-one believes the US is in this for anything more than extending its political power and making money. Muslim countries are not good business, because they're not into Gap jeans, or Air Jordans. They don't drive Chevys and they don't watch Hollywood movies. American corporations aren't flexible enough to make what Muslim's want, so the plan is to make them want what you're selling... and that's what is pissing their fundamentalists off. They want to retain their own culture and their own identity.

I feel the same way. I think the UK has lost a lot by giving up our individuality. I understand why we did. You were our saviours in WWII. Then you unleashed Jeans, Marlon Brando in the Wild One and Elvis Presley on us. America was an unstoppable tidal wave of cool.

Thing is, we lost the ability to tell cool from American, and much of what you produce now (music, Hollywood movies), is inane crap, but we still think that its cool. You have surrendered so completely to the Free Market way that cheapest/most successful is best... but it rarely is.

It is also funny how people seem to forget the first Bush president pulled out of Iraq as soon as he (and the coalition) kicked Saddam out of Kuwait.


As soon as the the oil supply was safe. Mission accomplished.

Joji laments so much "blood on American hands." Where is your concern for the millions liquidated by the Soviets AFTER WWII?


And here is one of the key parts of the problem. Attacking America is NOT supporting Russia, or Iraq, or whoever. But America has lost the will to see that.

I do not think anyone here, who maybe anti-Bush, is pro-Stalin. Many of us are not even anti-America. We are anti the way America behaves today. And true, it's not just since Bush took office... it has been building since WWII. But Bush is the most perfect example of it. And the illegal attack of Iraq is a catalyst for us to say something, when before we stayed quiet. We were wrong to stay quiet. But we didn't really understand the outrages America was commiting in Chile, or in Nicaragua.

But we understand this one. In reality, we should have been complaining about your behaviour for years.

But this is not a discussion about Russia's cold war crimes, and to bring it up is not relevant.


Argentina is a friend of the U.S. as is England, though obviously without the close ties and history, but still friends. Even so, America provided the UK with up-to-the-minute recon photos, both satellite and SR-71 based, as well as electronic intelligence data almost as soon as the conflict began.


Again. This is typical of the current American trend towards "If you are not our friends, you must be our enemies". No one is saying that the US has not been a good friend and strong ally to the UK and other western countries.

But let's be realistic, the trade ties between the UK and the US are much stronger than those between the US and Argentina, and ultimately when a choice had to be made, any country goes with what's best for them, or seems so at the time.

Where are the thanks for that??? Where is the admission the tactics of the Reagan administration ultimately proved highly successful, despite his probably-not-necessary grandstanding in Greneda.


One suspects, though, that the "tactics" were more about the politics of fear, and the support of the weapons industry than any conscious war of attrition against Russia. And you are also undermining the will and the sacrifice of the Russian, Polish, Hungarian, Czech etc etc people, who brought about change from within.

imperialistic the UK was before WWII, and would have continued to remain so if at all possible after WWII.


That is our national shame. We were wrong. I can only hope that the US will say the same about its current behaviour. But given that it took us years to get that perspective, I am not optimistic.

Some of you complain of (private) U.S. funding for the IRA. While I hated the IRA for their tactics, what is the UK even doing in Northern Ireland to begin with


Well, given that we have ruled ALL of Ireland since the dark ages until the 20th century. Longer than the white Anglos have "ruled" the United States, one could argue that we have a claim. But given that there is strong religious division there, a geographical division giving each sect its own "safe" place seemed like a good idea. We accept the idea of re-unification now... but they can't seem to stop fighting... and they are all Christians. Killing is a fundamental sin in their religion.

But I'm sure we would GLADLY leave the Island of Ireland, if all non-native Americans would leave the United States...

The UK was just as manipulative, just as selfish, just as aggressive and just as greedy as America has ever been in its long history.


Agreed. So let me see. Your justification for being so wrong and bad is "They did it first". It sounds more at home in a primary school playground than in world politics.

Are Americans so evil they should have their citizens burned to a cinder by the hundreds of thousands?


Were the Japanese in 1945?

It was dead meat before we even heard the name "Bush" and it will remain dead-meat long after Bush is out of office and completely forgotten.


It will be a LONG time before Bush is forgotten. He has started a cycle of violence that will remain with us for years to come.

The Islamic extremists will stop at nothing. Nothing.

The Islamic Extremeist would never have started if we had left them to their own culture. Not tried to assure ourselves of their oil. Not established a Jewish state on their lands.

And they would be far less of a threat if they had not been trained and armed by the CIA to get the Russians out of Afghanistan.

All this bickering takes away from that once very real and serious fact; that extremist Muslims (they are not really Muslims as Islam would never condone such madness), have been (l-o-n-g before "Bush"), are now and will remain rabidly anti-west. And anti-east.


Just as many extremist Christians are anti choice, anti freedom, pro-gun. But you're not bombing the mid-west, are you?

The problem here is extremism, not Islam... but you have failed to educate the average US citizen to that fact. And there is a scary kind of extremism gaining power in the US today.

Let us celebrate whatever holidays our nations hold this time of year by being thankful we get to argue, and by praying our children will be able to continue the tradition for decades to come.


Amen to that!

But are we confident that that right is not being eroded even now by measures taken by our governments under the name of security, but with a different agenda completely.

Are you confident, for instance, that every vote in the United States gets counted, and attributed to the correct party? It's strange to go forward touting democracy when you seem incapable of it yourselves.
Joji 25 Nov 2004 22:01
45/51
It's also funny how quickly people forget just how imperialistic the UK was before WWII, and would have continued to remain so if at all possible after WWII. Some of you complain of (private) U.S. funding for the IRA. While I hated the IRA for their tactics, what is the UK even doing in Northern Ireland to begin with - being "imperialists" which you now so villify when it comes to American actions today??? The UK was just as manipulative, just as selfish, just as aggressive and just as greedy as America has ever been in its long history. It was the presence of Dutch, UK and French military and capitalistic forces in Indo-China, sucking raw material out of the entire region as fast as they could get their hands on them, which so fueled the fires of militaristic voices in the Japanese government to the point where war was inevitable. Where is your regret for Eurpoean greed now??


//////


Jack as you said every country has a history of mistakes, but my point is that if you do not learn from them you are more likely to repeat them, regardless of what nation you are.

I really think that Mr Clinton was the best president the U.S has had in a while. Nobody is perfect, and yes he got caught with his pants down and an intern on his johnson (I admire the guy more for trying to lie his way out of it, in that situation anyone would), but for him to lose his job over it when he was doing pretty well, and replacing him with another Bush was just insane. Now look at the mess the supposed fair choice of all the american people has got them into now. Clinton even helped in the N Ireland peace process for which we are greatful.


LUPOS 26 Nov 2004 16:26
46/51
I have nothing else to add to this as i saddly doubt any of this is changing any one elses mind anyway, but i didnt want to cover my own @$$ for the taliban/alqueda slip up before, i understand the difference and was just lettign it fly and used the wrong name. i feel rather stupid for it as it probablky sorely dimminishes anyones chances of anyone taking the rest of my post at all seriously, but i digress.

in other news: speaking as a serious liberal i would like to express my admiration for the way some of the "right wing nut jobs" have expressed their views in this thread, while i still don't agree with it (AT ALL) you give a much more compelling (albeit missguided) argument for your side than the likes of rush limbaugh. At least i can now better understand why you think the way you do.

peace
______
Joji 26 Nov 2004 16:53
47/51
I'd just like to say that despite the fact this was thread supposed to be about a game, this has been one of the better debates we've had on this site, for a good while.

We might not agree on everything but it's good to talk rather than fight anyday. All of you spong crew and posters out there it been a lot of interesting, thought provoking, fun. Thank you.

On top of that, the gaming news has been really low key of late, what's going on Spong crew? Does it always get like this with news, around chrimbo?
mrFloppy 27 Nov 2004 00:42
48/51
Jack Dolcette wrote:
We either realize it sooner than later and do everything we can to stop them, or wake up one day and see your home town blasted into nothingness, along with your families and anything else remotely of value.


s**t, look, behind you; they are everywhere! over there, with the commies!

This alarmist propaganda is the exact type of s**t that makes people waltze into other countries saying "I am better than you because my god says so". Every religeon breeds fundamentalists - I mean really, is it christian to go about murdering doctors? Up until the 80's it was the damn reds under the bed, in the 90's it was the cultists and that nasty David Koresh, now it's those pesky muslim terrorists. Why can't people see the way their governments manipulate them by dangling the carrot of the bogey man, to scare them into agreeing with the latest flavour-of-the-month enemy?

Jack Dolcette wrote:

Too bad some of us don't see it is freedom which is allowing it. Freedom which ensures you can say just about anything you want here, and even produce games as reprehensible and vile as JFK Reloaded, and not be the least bit concerned there'll be a pounding knock at the door at 5:00 a.m. by someone demanding your attention downtown.


agghhghggggg! surely then you have never spoken out for anything more than the stars and stripes?!? In the mid 90's I had a web site forcibly removed because of censorship laws imposed by the Australian government. I have had friends beaten up by police for demanding their freedoms while the elected Prime Minister of Burma, Aung San Suu Kyi, is still under house arrest after the military has refused for over 13 years to allow her to take office. freedom is a thing measured out by those who can take it back - plain and bloody simple.

Your god given right to freedom is nothing more than a warm wet feeling you are taught to have - you have obviously never seen an indiginous Australian beaten down in the street for being free, have you?

hmmm.....

mrFloppy 27 Nov 2004 00:52
49/51
oh, and merry xmas. did I forget to say that?

;)
Rod Todd 27 Nov 2004 06:56
50/51
mrFloppy wrote:
oh, and merry xmas. did I forget to say that?


Well, no, you clearly didn't... but you SHOULD have.

I can take all the illegal invasions of sovereign states, the erosion of liberty, and the demonization of Islam. But one thing that REALLY pisses me off is people saying "Happy Christmas" before it's even December.

Will you now start wishing people a happy new year next Saturday (Dec 4th!!!), and then will we be on to Easter?

The moving forward of Christmas is a purely commercial activity, to create a longer pre-christmas buying period. Stores want you to begin thinking about Christmas the minute you're back from your vacation in July. It's crap.

Remember, us Americans wishing you a happy holidays in this thread are talking about Thanksgiving, which we've just celibrated. It's a time of the year when our families gather together to give thanks that we don't have to see one another again for a year, then we stuff ourselves and watch football. And Macy's have a huge parade up Broadway to celebrate how much money they are gonna take from us in the next four weeks.

Sorry for hijacking your thread... and I am more bothered about those other things really.
mrFloppy 27 Nov 2004 11:16
51/51
Rod Todd wrote:
Will you now start wishing people a happy new year next Saturday (Dec 4th!!!), and then will we be on to Easter?


now that makes me think...I can get away with never having to wish anyone anything again if we really push this one to the limit.

happy-bloody-merry-birthday-christmas-easter and have a great new year everyone I have ever known and will ever know.

phew. Might be a little early - I know - but that should carry me well into the next decade at least.

now, where'd I leave that coffee....
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